Aspects of Sexuality and opposing World Views (18 and older)

[Catholicity]

So things that makes us all go hmm.....Yeah its been a dead horse beaten a thousand times but I'm sure with three thousand perspectives. Masturbation, an aspect of sexuality that some Christians think is wrong, others don't, some have no opinion, many religions believe its fine, Certain denominations or religions fit it in with a specific world view of their philosophy of marriage. And of course it all brings up (for some of us) frightening stories of mothers or nuns telling us we'll go blind or develop cancer, which medical literature has clearly proven very false. I'm putting this thread here because I don't really know where else to put it, I want everyone to participate, and I am asking that this discussion be approached from a medical, religious and or academic specific view point. Other moderators if there is a better place for this please weigh in or feel free to move it. Thanks.

[Teallaura]

<moderator voice>

This thread is for grown ups only. Keep it civil and on topic - and within Decorum - or this thread will be closed.

</moderator voice>

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12/06/2012 21:57 Spartacus: it has to do with the way we relate to other people and to God
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12/06/2012 21:57 Leonhard: Yes if its wrong to masturbate, then its a demonic urge. If its not wrong, then its simple a natural urge. Begging the question doesn't help answering it.
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12/06/2012 21:57 Leonhard: Okay.
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12/06/2012 21:58 Spartacus: perhaps this would be better discussed by someone with more experience in this, umm, very particular subject
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12/06/2012 21:58 Leonhard: How is that hurt, which I assume you'll argue that it does, by masturbation?
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12/06/2012 21:58 Leonhard: Good grief you're prudish.
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12/06/2012 21:59 Leonhard: You're a human person, you're made of a flesh.
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12/06/2012 21:59 Carrikature: I think you missed his point Leon
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12/06/2012 21:59 Spartacus: I mean that what I say on this subject will be more informed by dogmas than by personal experience.
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12/06/2012 21:59 Leonhard: You've got snot in your nose, navel lint in your belly button, feces in eight meters of your gut, and sweat in your glands and so did Jesus.
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12/06/2012 21:59 Leonhard: Alright.
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12/06/2012 21:59 Spartacus: I can discuss it, I might just sound ignorant.
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12/06/2012 22:00 Carrikature: because it can be such a great thing, to subvert it is inherently wrong (seems to be closer to what he's saying)
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12/06/2012 22:00 Spartacus: that's close, carrik
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12/06/2012 22:00 Leonhard: I'm just tired of trying to discuss something like this and having people be evasive "these particular ahem carnal things.. hate to the demiurge""
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12/06/2012 22:01 Leonhard: But how does masturbation subvert it?
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12/06/2012 22:01 Catholicity28: hmmmm........I thinkk this might be a good philosophy or CS 101 discussion
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12/06/2012 22:01 Teallaura: Er, we usually have to close those threads...
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12/06/2012 22:01 Leonhard: Very well.
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12/06/2012 22:01 Spartacus: haha
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12/06/2012 22:02 Spartacus: umm
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12/06/2012 22:02 Spartacus: think of it like a very intricate watch
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12/06/2012 22:02 Leonhard: Prudish, but this is a right-wing christian forum.
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12/06/2012 22:02 Leonhard: And watch can only have Roman Numerals. Not letters. Only roman numerals.
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12/06/2012 22:02 Spartacus: if you mess with the gears, you may have messed up the mechanism of the watch
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12/06/2012 22:03 Leonhard: Again begging the question Spart. You're just saying its wrong via an analogy. I know you claim its wrong, I'm asking you to make sense of why its wrong.
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12/06/2012 22:03 Leonhard: I mean... are you fair here. Can't at least see that it seems very arbitrary and pointless?
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12/06/2012 22:04 Spartacus: because human sexuality is so complex- because it is so inextricably and deliberate linked with the Divine- it is easier to mess up, and the consequences of these things are harder to fix than if the watch were simpler
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12/06/2012 22:04 Leonhard: Just as dumb as a word limit on how many nouns you may use in a day.
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12/06/2012 22:04 Spartacus: because human sexuality is more linked to human relationships than, say, eating, misuse of sexuality is more grave than misuse of the mouth

[pancreasman]

I can actually understand the argument that expression of sexuality can be approached as a sacred thing and in some way signifies or alludes to partaking in the divine life. So far so good. But should ALL expressions of sexuality be considered this way or does this limit the full gamut of sexual experience needlessly?

Consider the desire for sexual expression as an appetite. We have an appetite for food. The Eucharist is a sacred and/or symbolic version of the satisfaction of that appetite. This doesn't mean we shouldn't eat bacon, or have french fries, or chocolate. We can eat popcorn in front of the TV without considering ourselves sinful or 'cheating on God'. I wonder if the sexual appetite could be thought of in a similar way, with its sacred, holy fulfillment in marriage but not exclusively limited to that. Is masturbation the 'junk food' of the sexual appetite?

[magellan004]

... And of course it all brings up (for some of us) frightening stories of mothers or nuns telling us we'll go blind or develop cancer, which medical literature has clearly proven very false.

Has it? (proved those notions false) Do you have any references?

Magellan

[Leonhard]

I struggled a lot of with this as a Christian, mostly because there was no obvious biblical mandate against masturbation and simple because every natural inclination I had told me it wasn't anything other than a simple natural urge. Why is so much energy put into barring people from doing this? Are there any sound good reasons for doing so, and that's what I wanted to know.

I hear occasionally about 'natural law' arguments. They seem to follow the same weird story: The sexual organs are made for the act of sex between a man and a woman. The act of sex is a great good in a marriage. Masturbation isn't an act of sex between two married people. Therefore masturbation is wrong. There seems to me to be a huge and obvious gap between the two last sentences. This could simple be my ignorance.

I also never gotten a reality check on how many Christian believe that masturbation really is wrong. How wrong? Grave ill, or peccadillo?

Why don't the natural law arguers consider that masturbation might be a natural response? If it could be shown that it increased fertility, it seems that this alone would show that it had a healthy place since it kept the body in a better condition for the act of sex. Even that aside, it seems just a healthy thing mentally. What's harmed or destroyed? And I'm not getting at vague allusions to "Your spiritual relationship with God", that would only be the case if it was in fact a sin but simple saying that begs the question, similarly with the argument that it shows weakness of character. It would be a violation of temperance only if it was something that came in the way of you doing something else that was a greater good, and there's plenty of things that you can do that are not a sin and of themselves, or even good, which would violate a virtue of temperance.

Its something I've had many frustrated attempts at understanding. I've failed to see why any Christian should limit themselves like this, and without good reasons for supposing that its an ill I don't see why people should insist that it is an ill. It seems arbitrary, and an old mistake that's being propagated needlessly.

[Leonhard]

Has it? (proved those notions false) Do you have any references?

Please lets not make this topic a discussion about Sex Ed 101, I really want to discuss the natural law argument against masturbation and whether its sound.

[seer]

I struggled a lot of with this as a Christian, mostly because there was no obvious biblical mandate against masturbation and simple because every natural inclination I had told me it wasn't anything other than a simple natural urge. Why is so much energy put into barring people from doing this? Are there any sound good reasons for doing so, and that's what I wanted to know.

Of course you would agree that there are many "natural urges" that would be considered wrong? As far as masturbation, I think I have come to the conclusion that it is wrong for me.

[magellan004]

Please lets not make this topic a discussion about Sex Ed 101, I really want to discuss the natural law argument against masturbation and whether its sound.

If it is harmful then the matter is more or less settled. But OK, I'll bow out now.

Magellan

[shunyadragon]

So things that makes us all go hmm.....Yeah its been a dead horse beaten a thousand times but I'm sure with three thousand perspectives. Masturbation, an aspect of sexuality that some Christians think is wrong, others don't, some have no opinion, many religions believe its fine, Certain denominations or religions fit it in with a specific world view of their philosophy of marriage. And of course it all brings up (for some of us) frightening stories of mothers or nuns telling us we'll go blind or develop cancer, which medical literature has clearly proven very false. I'm putting this thread here because I don't really know where else to put it, I want everyone to participate, and I am asking that this discussion be approached from a medical, religious and or academic specific view point. Other moderators if there is a better place for this please weigh in or feel free to move it. Thanks.

Sexuality is an important issue that quit bluntly the Roman Church, other churches, and Islam are living in the ancient past, and fail to deal with issues of the human reality of sexuality. Judaism is the odd man out in this crowd, because of the extreme pragmatism and midrash that dominates the understanding of morals, and not ancient scripture laws in the morality and relationships in everyday life.

The Baha'i Faith has morals laws of monogamy, celibacy before marriage, and does require Baha'is who are homosexuals to be celibate, but defers to science for the knowledge of understanding the nature human behavior. Making homosexuality a crime, or imposing religious beliefs on society in general is problematic in the secular world, and efforts by churches to impose this reflects a desire to impose a theocracy. Masturbation is one of the behaviors of human behavior that perfectly normal and practically universal.

[seer]

Sexuality is an important issue that quit bluntly the Roman Church, other churches, and Islam are living in the ancient past, and fail to deal with issues of the human reality of sexuality. Judaism is the odd man out in this crowd, because of the extreme pragmatism and midrash that dominates the understanding of morals, and not ancient scripture laws in the morality and relationships in everyday life.

The Baha'i Faith has morals laws of monogamy, celibacy before marriage, and does require Baha'is who are homosexuals to be celibate, but defers to science for the knowledge of understanding the nature human behavior. Making homosexuality a crime, or imposing religious beliefs on society in general is problematic in the secular world, and efforts by churches to impose this reflects a desire to impose a theocracy. Masturbation is one of the behaviors of human behavior that perfectly normal and practically universal.

Well first Shuny, because something is practically universal does not make it morally acceptable. Second, I'm not sure how I, as a bible believing christian, is living in the "ancient past?" I would probably agree with most of what you suggest that the Baha'i Faith teaches.

[shunyadragon]

Well first Shuny, because something is practically universal does not make it morally acceptable. Second, I'm not sure how I, as a bible believing christian, is living in the "ancient past?" I would probably agree with most of what you suggest that the Baha'i Faith teaches.

In terms of what is universal does not mean, because it is universal it is moral and good. Morality is a universal characteristic of human behavior in all cultures, In terms of masturbation this is one behavior that is paradoxical as a sin in some churches. Its nature in the universal nature with human sexuality as science presents a better understanding probably is the best way to understand this.

we may agree on some things, ok, but there are many aspects, and problems of how Christianity and Islam interact with the modern world that reflect ancient worldviews, such as interacting with science, and those that believe differently. In terms of morals, ethics and sexuality, an intolerance of diversity of those who believe differently is an on going problem.

[Thersites]

I think my perspective on this issue is more about theology than natural law. That having been said...

Because sexuality is meant to reflect or parallel the human relationship with God, any expression of sexuality that is not relational (or, in theological terms, "unitive") should be regarded as a misuse of sexuality. If that misuse of sexuality is habitual, then that habit could conceivably form an obstacle to the proper expression of sexuality.

Is that just repeating what I'd already said, or is there actually some new fodder in there?

[seer]

In terms of what is universal does not mean, because it is universal it is moral and good. Morality is a universal characteristic of human behavior in all cultures, In terms of masturbation this is one behavior that is paradoxical as a sin in some churches. Its nature in the universal nature with human sexuality as science presents a better understanding probably is the best way to understand this.

Shuny, science does not tell us what is moral or immoral. And why did you bring up the universal thing if you now agree that universality does not tell us if a behavior is moral or immoral?

we may agree on some things, ok, but there are many aspects, and problems of how Christianity and Islam interact with the modern world that reflect ancient worldviews, such as interacting with science, and those that believe differently. In terms of morals, ethics and sexuality, an intolerance of diversity of those who believe differently is an on going problem.

What on going problem? For instance both our faiths teach that homosexuality is wrong. So what is your point?

[Kane]

I think my perspective on this issue is more about theology than natural law. That having been said...

Because sexuality is meant to reflect or parallel the human relationship with God, any expression of sexuality that is not relational (or, in theological terms, "unitive") should be regarded as a misuse of sexuality.

According to Christianity, there was a time when God was without relationships; i.e., there was no creation, just the godhead. Given your logic, does that mean that atheists and non-Christians are free to masturbate?

[Thersites]

According to Christianity, there was a time when God was without relationships; i.e., there was no creation, just the godhead. Given your logic, does that mean that atheists and non-Christians are free to masturbate?

Not if one takes the Trinity into account: God already is a relationship.