Aspects of Sexuality and opposing World Views (18 and older)

[Carrikature]

Leonhard, I'm not sure what else you may be looking for - you have some good responses to your original post in this thread. Like I said earlier, there may be no hard of fast rule concerning masturbation for instance. I attempt to stay away from it because I seriously objectify women, and sexual desire can begin to control me . I know that state of mind is not good for me, or in larger sense conducive to a morally healthy society. Another example; I have no problem going to a casino now and again and dropping 60 bucks or so. It’s a good time, and we always include a dinner. But I have friends that have lost everything at Foxwoods - they can not control themselves. They may control themselves in other areas, but not here - sometimes it is just best to abstain.

I believe he'd like to explore some of the thoughts and responses without having to wade through your and shuny's back and forth. No one but you and spartacus consider shuny worth responding to, but if you want to go at it with him, it'd be better suited to the Communications Studies so you can argue without interfering with actual discussion.

[seer]

I believe he'd like to explore some of the thoughts and responses without having to wade through your and shuny's back and forth. No one but you and spartacus consider shuny worth responding to, but if you want to go at it with him, it'd be better suited to the Communications Studies so you can argue without interfering with actual discussion.

That is fine, and that is why I responded to Leonhard. I'm trying to find out what his main objection or problem is.

[Thersites]

8:20PM Leonhard: I know this is your position Spart, the thing I want to understand is what is hurt.
8:20PM Spartacus: Well, I'm laying out the groundwork. It has yet to be demonstrated why sexuality is so "high-voltage"
8:21PM Leonhard: Alright.
8:21PM Spartacus: Your ability to properly regard an actual sexual partner as a partner and not merely an object
8:21PM Spartacus: is what is hurt
8:22PM Leonhard: Hmmm.
8:22PM Leonhard: What is this based upon?
8:22PM Leonhard: Not saying it wouldn't be a good reason if it could be shown, but where does this come from?
8:22PM Spartacus: Virtue ethics, Leon. Your actions form your habits, which define your character
8:23PM Leonhard: That's a very summary answer.
8:23PM Spartacus: by which you mean you want more detail?
8:23PM Leonhard: "How do you this?" "Physics, its all equations and stuff"
8:24PM Leonhard: Its a rather impressively empirical claim, so the naturalists in me wants it to be supported. ^^
8:26PM Spartacus: OK... is it possible to masturbate without any sort of depersonalization of the stimulus?

Let me rephrase my last question. It is my understanding- in line with what Carrik explained earlier- that masturbation typically requires some sort of lust. If this can be debunked, then my perspective's in serious trouble.

Indulging in that lust habitually can seriously damage a person's ability to actually engage in "real" sex- that is, sexual activity that unites the couple in both body and soul and which therefore more closely reflects the nature of humanity's relationship with God.

[shunyadragon]

Let me rephrase my last question. It is my understanding- in line with what Carrik explained earlier- that masturbation typically requires some sort of lust. If this can be debunked, then my perspective's in serious trouble.

Indulging in that lust habitually can seriously damage a person's ability to actually engage in "real" sex- that is, sexual activity that unites the couple in both body and soul and which therefore more closely reflects the nature of humanity's relationship with God.

The problem with this is that there is no evidence of this in the real modern world of behavioral science. Masturbation is a virtually universal natural behavior in humanity, and is better understood today. In other words the above has no justification in the modern world.

In response to Carrik, lust is a very normal part of natural healthy human sexuality.

[seer]

The problem with this is that there is no evidence of this in the real modern world of behavioral science. Masturbation is a virtually universal natural behavior in humanity, and is better understood today. In other words the above has no justification in the modern world.

Again Shuny you are not making sense. Does the fact that it is virtually universal and natural make it morally acceptable or good? And why is it "better understood" today? I'm pretty sure we always knew what masturbation was...

In response to Carrik, lust is a very normal part of natural healthy human sexuality.

So sexual lust is a good thing? According to whom?

[shunyadragon]

Again Shuny you are not making sense. Does the fact that it is virtually universal and natural make it morally acceptable or good? And why is it "better understood" today? I'm pretty sure we always knew what masturbation was...

No, we did not always know the nature of masturbation in relationship to natural human sexual behavior. In the past and unfortunately many believe today in a view shrouded in fear and ignorance of ancient beliefs..

Actually I have already addressed this before. The bottom line is that there is absolutely no known harmful effects from masturbation that can be consistently documented. The view expressed by Sparticus is an old view based on an ancient view of Natural Law, which the Roman Church still supports, and has no relationship with what our knowledge of human sexuality understands today.

So sexual lust is a good thing? According to whom?

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHKZ_enUS434US434&aq=f&sugexp=chrome,mod=3&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=lust+definition

lust/ləst/
Noun:
Very strong sexual desire.
Verb:
Have a very strong sexual desire for someone: "he really lusted after me in those days".

© source where applicable

The strength of sexual desire varies and is a very natural human sexual attribute. We probably would not have much in the way sexual relationships and procreation without it.

There may be and is cultural, societal and religious laws against the inappropriate expressions of lust in things like promiscuous behavior, but masturbation would not be likely inappropriate by its nature.

According to whom is lust is a bad thing?

[Thersites]

Leon, I'm only responding to this post because I think I can use it to bring out some larger points that might help explain my position to you. I'm not going to let this thread take another 7-page derail.

Actually I have already addressed this before. The bottom line is that there is absolutely no known harmful effects from masturbation that can be consistently documented. The view expressed by Sparticus is an old view based on an ancient view of Natural Law, which the Roman Church still supports, and has no relationship with what our knowledge of human sexuality understands today.

I harbor no pretenses of being a Natural Law theorist. I'm just offering my own poor paraphrase of Karol Wojtyla's work on human sexuality.

The strength of sexual desire varies and is a very natural human sexual attribute. We probably would not have much in the way sexual relationships and procreation without it.

There may be and is cultural, societal and religious laws against the inappropriate expressions of lust in things like promiscuous behavior, but masturbation would not be likely inappropriate by its nature.

According to whom is lust is a bad thing?

Strong sexual desire is not the only definition of lust. Lust was classified by the medievals as one of the Seven Deadly Sins- not as sexual desire, but as inordinate desire for pleasure (often, but not exclusively sexual in nature). There is also the slightly more specific sense and connotation of lust used in

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Although the general definition of lust used by the Medievals isn't far off from what I mean to discuss, I think it's a bit closer to the Matt 5:28 meaning, where lust is used specifically in reference to sexuality.

It is my impression (which may be false) that masturbation involves mental as well as physical stimulation. One cannot masturbate to nothing- either pornographic images or a moderately vivid imagination are almost always involved. In the former case, one is exploiting the body of another person- airbrushed or not- for one's own pleasure.

This leads me to a question for you, Leonhard:
Kant once argued that one should regard other persons as ends in themselves and not merely as means. Does using the image of another person's body, or else inventing an image of an un-real person, live up to that norm?

[seer]

No, we did not always know the nature of masturbation in relationship to natural human sexual behavior. In the past and unfortunately many believe today in a view shrouded in fear and ignorance of ancient beliefs..

This is just silly. We really don't know anything new about masturbation, it's the same old same old. So you are just making stuff up again.

Actually I have already addressed this before. The bottom line is that there is absolutely no known harmful effects from masturbation that can be consistently documented. The view expressed by Sparticus is an old view based on an ancient view of Natural Law, which the Roman Church still supports, and has no relationship with what our knowledge of human sexuality understands today.

Again, this is just nonsense. Masturbation has a negative effect on my moral character. I don't speak for every individual, only for myself - but there is a negative effect. And according to our present and enlightened understanding homosexual behavior is perfectly normal and acceptable - yet your religion tells gays that they need to remain celibate! You are talking out of both sides for your mouth.

There may be and is cultural, societal and religious laws against the inappropriate expressions of lust in things like promiscuous behavior, but masturbation would not be likely inappropriate by its nature.

According to whom is lust is a bad thing?

Scripture has no problem with normal sexual desire for one's spouse. But when you focus that desire on an inappropriate object or when your pleasure becomes and end in itself it becomes a problem.

I can't argue with this Shuny, can you:

“Bahá'u'lláh, like all the other Prophets and Messengers of God, preaches abstinence, and condemns, in vehement language, all forms of sexual laxity, unbridled licence and lust. The Bahá'í standard of sex morality is thus very high, but it is by no means unreasonably rigid. While free love is condemned, yet marriage is considered as a holy act which every human being should be encouraged, though not forced, to perform. Sex instinct, like all other human instincts, is not necessarily evil. It is a power which, if properly directed, can bring joy and satisfaction to the individual. If misused or abused it brings, of course, incalculable harm not only to the individual but also to the society in which he lives. While the Bahá'ís condemn asceticism and all extreme forms of self-mortification they at the same time view with disfavour the current theories of sex ethics which cannot but bring ruin to human society”

(Shoghi Effendi, The Unfolding Destiny of the British Baha'i Community, 434).

Or this:

'Concerning your question whether there are any legitimate forms of expression of the sex instinct outside of marriage: According to the Baha'i Teachings no sexual act can be considered lawful unless performed between lawfully married persons. Outside of marital life there can be no lawful or healthy use of the sex impulse. The Baha'i youth should, on the one hand, be taught the lesson of self-control which, when exercised, undoubtedly has a salutary effect on the development of character and of personality in general, and on the other should be advised, nay even encouraged, to contract marriage while still young and in full possession of their physical vigour. Economic factors, no doubt, are often a serious hindrance to early marriage but in most cases are only an excuse, and as such should not be over stressed.'

"In another letter on the Guardian's behalf, also to an individual believer, the secretary writes:

'Amongst the many other evils afflicting society in this spiritual low water mark in history is the question of immorality, and over-emphasis of sex...'

"This indicates how the whole matter of sex and the problems related to it have assumed far too great an importance in the thinking of present-day society.

"Masturbation is clearly not a proper use of the sex instinct, as this is understood in the Faith. Moreover it involves, as you have pointed out, mental fantasies, while Baha'u'llah, in the Kitab-i-Aqdas, has exhorted us not to indulge our passions and in one of His well-known Tablets Abdu'l-Baha encourages us to keep our 'secret thoughts pure'. Of course many wayward thoughts come involuntarily to the mind and these are merely a result of weakness and are not blameworthy unless they become fixed or even worse, are expressed in improper acts. In 'The Advent of Divine Justice', when describing the moral standards that Baha'is must uphold both individually and in their community life.

(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, a copy of which was sent to the compiler with a letter dated March 8, 1981; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1220)

So Shuny your own religion does not accept masturbation as a proper use of the sex instinct!

[shunyadragon]

This is just silly. We really don't know anything new about masturbation, it's the same old same old. So you are just making stuff up again.



Again, this is just nonsense. Masturbation has a negative effect on my moral character. I don't speak for every individual, only for myself - but there is a negative effect. And according to our present and enlightened understanding homosexual behavior is perfectly normal and acceptable - yet your religion tells gays that they need to remain celibate! You are talking out of both sides for your mouth.



Scripture has no problem with normal sexual desire for one's spouse. But when you focus that desire on an inappropriate object or when your pleasure becomes and end in itself it becomes a problem.

I can't argue with this Shuny, can you:



So Shuny your own religion does not accept masturbation as a proper use of the sex instinct!

Your googling was successful in coming up with a detailed explanation of the Baha'i view on the subject, including some references by Shoghi Effendi that I was not aware of. I will comment more on this in a later post.

One note; The writings before Shoghi Effendi dis not specifically prohibit masturbation, nor describe it as a sin as in other specific laws on other issues. Shoghi Effendi's statement of inappropriate is much milder than the Roman Church considering it a 'sin,' which in the Church would be an act that would condemn one to the fiery place of the condemned.

Your correct on this one!!!

[seer]

Your googling was successful in coming up with a detailed explanation of the Baha'i view on the subject, including some references by Shoghi Effendi that I was not aware of. I will comment more on this in a later post.

One note; The writings before Shoghi Effendi dis not specifically prohibit masturbation, nor describe it as a sin as in other specific laws on other issues. Shoghi Effendi's statement of inappropriate is much milder than the Roman Church considering it a 'sin,' which in the Church would be an act that would condemn one to the fiery place of the condemned.

Well I don't know how much milder (Masturbation is clearly not a proper use of the sex instinct, as this is understood in the Faith), that is pretty strong Shuny. And sin in scripture means missing the mark. And I don't think they believe that masturbation is what they call a "mortal" sin. Though I'm not Catholic.

Your correct on this one!!!

Well the heavens be praised! So lust and masturbation are not a part of "natural healthy human sexuality."