Aspects of Sexuality and opposing World Views (18 and older)

[Carrikature]

It's easier to debunk his silliness than it is to address Leonhard's concerns. Low-hanging fruit gets picked first

The Tantalus of Tweb.

[seer]

I am not going to jump your imaginary hoops of proof. I am simply going to present my evidence and citations as they are. My reference to Uganda as an example, is not cherry picking. It is very specific and well documented. You may respond if you chose or ignore as you advise others to do.

Nonsense Shuny. This is cherry picking, as is your other example. Just because some who claim to be christian harm homosexuals does not mean that the majority of Christians past or present have done this or agree with it. Or that there is any New Testament mandate to do such things - the same with other sexual sins like adultery or fornication.

[seer]

The following is another example of the problem . . .


Shocking reports have surfaced that reveal at least ten teenage boys were castrated in the 1950s by the Dutch Roman Catholic Church as a "treatment" for homosexuality, the Telegraph reports.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/19/dutch-church-castrated-treatment-homosexuality_n_1365725.html

Dutch journalist Joep Dohmen, reporting for the NRC Handelsblad uncovered ten cases of the castrations, one of which was suffered by Henk Heithuis, who was castrated as a minor for reporting to police sexual abuse by a priest that he endured while in the boarding home.

Although the priests were convicted of the abuses, Heithuis was still transported to a Catholic hospital, and underwent a surgical castration as a treatment for homosexuality and, according to the report, a punishment for tattling on the clergy.

© source where applicable

More cherry picking Shuny? I mean the Christian faith has been around for over two thousand years and this is the best you can do? There is nothing in N.T. faith or practice that would lead to violence against gays, or would mandate said violence, just the opposite - are we not called to love our fellow man? We all sin Shuny, we all have our faults - my sins are no better or worse than the homosexual's. We both (we all) need the grace of God...

[robertb]

Shuny could look at the period of time during which the church actually held significant power within the state, medieval Europe, for example, to support his position regarding the treatment of homosexuals.

For those, I suppose, it's thank God for the enlightenment, etc. etc.

[seer]

Shuny could look at the period of time during which the church actually held significant power within the state, medieval Europe, for example, to support his position regarding the treatment of homosexuals.

For those, I suppose, it's thank God for the enlightenment, etc. etc.

Yes, but they burned just about anybody back then. Heretics got the brunt of it - not homosexuals. The fact is there is no N.T. mandate to harm gays or adulterers or heretics or any other sinner. And if memory serves, during the Inquisitions the charge of sodomy was used mostly against Christian sects that were considered heretical. And, I thank God for preserving the N.T. not for the enlightenment.

[robertb]

Yes, but they burned just about anybody back then. Heretics got the brunt of it - not homosexuals. The fact is there is no N.T. mandate to harm gays or adulterers or heretics or any other sinner. I thank God for preserving the N.T. not for the enlightenment.

Perhaps, though your view of scripture and what is relevant to it may be different from the view of other Christians. Additionally, I am not sure that the fact that the church also burned heretics is relevant to the fact that the church burned homosexuals for theological reasons not having to do witheresycy, but specifically to do with sodomy.

My reference to the enlightenment refers to the time when the influence of the church was waning in favor of more secular legal systems, not to belittle your point.

[seer]

Perhaps, though your view of scripture and what is relevant to it may be different from the view of other Christians. Additionally, I am not sure that the fact that the church also burned heretics is relevant to the fact that the church burned homosexuals for theological reasons not having to do witheresycy, but specifically to do with sodomy.

As far as I can tell robertb the guiding text for how Christians relate to their fellow man is clearly laid out in the N.T. There is no real question on what it teaches, there is no other "view." In the end those who are burning gays or heretics are violating those principles. And again, if memory serves, there was not a widespread persecution against homosexuals. They were mostly after heretics... And I just refuse to let Shuny paint us all with his broad brush...

[seer]

My reference to the enlightenment refers to the time when the influence of the church was waning in favor of more secular legal systems, not to belittle your point.

Well I don't see how "secular legal systems" would make anything better. North Korea has a secular legal system. I think the big change came with one; the printing press, and two; increasing literacy. When the common man got the scriptures in his hands he was no longer beholden to the Bishop and Priests to "interpret."

[robertb]

As far as I can tell robertb the guiding text for how Christians relate to their fellow man is clearly laid out in the N.T. There is no real question on what it teaches, there is no other "view." In the end those who are burning gays or heretics are violating those principles. And again, if memory serves, there was not a widespread persecution against homosexuals. They were mostly after heretics... And I just refuse to let Shuny paint us all with his broad brush...

By "other view" I was referring to those Christians who view the OT as being relevant with regards to their view of homosexuals. I did not mean to imply that there was specific support for specific violence against homosexuals in the NT, which there clearly is not.

[robertb]

Well I don't see how "secular legal systems" would make anything better. North Korea has a secular legal system. I think the big change came with one; the printing press, and two; increasing literacy. When the common man got the scriptures in his hands he was no longer beholden to the Bishop and Priests to "interpret."

Perhaps, though such may have in fact contributed to the movement towards more secular legal systems as well.

(And N. Korea has had a sort of worship of the "Dear Leader", (the Dear Leader being a substitute divinity), type for some time. I really wouldn't refer to this as secular, in the sense I am using it.)

[seer]

By "other view" I was referring to those Christians who view the OT as being relevant with regards to their view of homosexuals. I did not mean to imply that there was specific support for specific violence against homosexuals in the NT, which there clearly is not.

Yes, but as far as I can tell Christians are no longer under Mosaic law, nor is there any mandate to institute Mosaic law. Those who make these claims need to justify them Biblically.

[seer]

Perhaps, though such may have in fact contributed to the movement towards more secular legal systems as well.

(And N. Korea has had a sort of worship of the "Dear Leader", (the Dear Leader being a substitute divinity), type for some time. I really wouldn't refer to this as secular, in the sense I am using it.)

Well how about the secular legal systems of China or the former Soviet Union, or Cuba, or Cambodia? See putting the word "secular" in front of legal system tells us nothing. There can be good secular systems and bad, just as there could be good religious systems and bad.

[robertb]

Well how about the secular legal systems of China or the former Soviet Union, or Cuba, or Cambodia? See putting the word "secular" in front of legal system tells us nothing. There can be good secular systems and bad, just as there could be good religious systems and bad.

True, just stuck in a western social democratic mind set at the moment, I suppose.

[robertb]

Yes, but as far as I can tell Christians are no longer under Mosaic law, nor is there any mandate to institute Mosaic law. Those who make these claims need to justify them Biblically.

I don't disagree, but I suppose that such individuals believe they do so.

[seer]

I don't disagree, but I suppose that such individuals believe they do so.

Yes, but this whole line of arguing by Shuny is nonsensical. That just because one takes scripture at face value, or if one is a "fundi" that, that necessarily leads to violence, or that violence against gays or others is normative for the Christian faith. Then, his whole irrational suggestion that "science" has moved us past these considerations - while saying that science is not the arbitrator of moral questions. Illogical...