are OC and Jeff going to hell?

[ke7ejx]

Then I'm dumb and proud of it.

[Sparko]

Then I'm dumb and proud of it.

there's still hope for you one day Ke7.

You at least think about things instead of just doing this like Jeff and OC do:

head-in-sand.jpg

[Cow Poke]

If he is LDS, he is dumb according to Sparko, who said IIRC that a person would have to be dumb to believe LDS doctrines.

Well, golly, Jeff, since you value Sparko's opinion so much, why don't you let him straighten out your theology?

[Kabane52]

then maybe you should read this thread from the beginning. they teach that they get saved only after all they can do to be perfect and do good works. The good works are a requirement BEFORE they can be saved. It has nothing to do with rewarding obedience. It has everything to do with obligating God to save them because they work for it.

I believe that salvation itself can be rightly spoken of as a reward for obedience. (i.e. "living by faith") On this model, God is not obligated to save because we have done a certain number of works that places him in a position of legal debt to us. Rather, He rewards us for our works.

what you may not understand is that OC is not spouting the Party Line in this thread. He is obviously embarrassed and disagrees with what the LDS church teaches, and yet he can't bring himself to say that outright, so instead he tries to claim that the LDS church does not believe in works as a requirement of salvation, when in fact they do. We have quoted actual leaders of the LDS church saying so.

They certainly do. But so do I. The question is not whether the LDS believe that works are required for salvation. Historically, most Christians have believed that works are required for salvation. The question is whether these are works of debt. Aquinas distinguished between condign merit and strict merit. We merit salvation in the sense that we perform works and God graciously rewards man with salvation for those works. We do not merit salvation in the sense that St. Paul condemns it, that is, attempting to put God in debt and obligate Him to pay us with salvation. IMO, it's still not clear that LDS believe in the latter.

[Sparko]

I believe that salvation itself can be rightly spoken of as a reward for obedience. (i.e. "living by faith") On this model, God is not obligated to save because we have done a certain number of works that places him in a position of legal debt to us. Rather, He rewards us for our works.

They certainly do. But so do I. The question is not whether the LDS believe that works are required for salvation. Historically, most Christians have believed that works are required for salvation. The question is whether these are works of debt. Aquinas distinguished between condign merit and strict merit. We merit salvation in the sense that we perform works and God graciously rewards man with salvation for those works. We do not merit salvation in the sense that St. Paul condemns it, that is, attempting to put God in debt and obligate Him to pay us with salvation. IMO, it's still not clear that LDS believe in the latter.

If God is "rewarding" you with salvation for your works and withholding salvation if you don't work, then yes you do indeed believe in works-based salvation and that goes against what the bible teaches. I think you need to dig a little deeper into your Orthodox teachings. Merely calling a payment a "reward" doesn't change the fact that it is a payment and that it is based purely on works

I checked an EO website and here is what they say about salvation and works:

Salvation is laid in the life of Christ as our foundation. However, our works for him don't earn us salvation, but neither are they unimportant. There is a reward, and that reward according to the Fathers is communion with Him more fully and completely. For the more we gain His "likeness" in this life, the more joy we will experience as we come into His presence. http://www.orthodoxconvert.info/Q-A....in%20Orthodoxy

so salvation is not the reward for works, as you said. communion with God is the reward. Basically what CP and I have been saying. Works do not affect our adoption as sons, but do affect how we relate to God.

[Kabane52]

If God is "rewarding" you with salvation for your works and withholding salvation if you don't work, then yes you do indeed believe in works-based salvation and that goes against what the bible teaches.

Nope- you are still missing the issue here and are trying to fit what I'm saying into a Protestant frame of mind. Do I believe in works-based salvation? No, if by works you are referring to the type of works that one does for an employer. You go to work, do your thing, and the employer must give you your check. If he doesn't, you can take him to court because he is being unjust. You don't have any sort of relationship with the employer. The works that I speak of are the works that naturally engender communion with God. Faith is the orientation through which all of these works are done, which is why "the righteous shall live by faith. Faith is the orientation which allows us to have communion with God, rather than a distant relationship like that of an employer and an employee. If I wish to make a friend, then I can't go to his house, mow his lawn, ring his doorbell, and say, "Okay, we're friends." That's "works of the law." Trying to obligate God. Gracious work is when you speak with the friend, you spend time with your friend, things like this. It's not as if your friend is paying you with a friendship. These things that you do are naturally creating a friendship. See the difference? The works Paul condemns are specifically works of obligation:

(Romans 4:4) Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his payment.

"Work" is being used in the context of "payment." It's working like you're an employee and like God owes you something.

I think you need to dig a little deeper into your Orthodox teachings. Merely calling a payment a "reward" doesn't change the fact that it is a payment and that it is based purely on works

Uh, yes it does. Payments are not rewards. Rewards are not payments. Rewards are not owed, they are gifts. Payments are owed. If a kid gets straight As, his parents may reward him with twenty dollars. Did they owe him that money? No. Were they obligated to give him that money? No. Did they give it to him out of kindness? Yes. Did they give it to him because of what he had done? Yes.

Now, salvation adds an additional nuance to this in the fact that all the works that a person does are by the power and grace of the Holy Spirit in the first place, so that:

(Romans 8:13) For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Two options are given. First, if you live according to the flesh, you will die. This is not discussing "sanctification", which in the Protestant understanding has no relation to one's final destiny. This is discussing eternal destiny. What is the other option? How does one "live"? By faith alone, right? No! St. Paul presents the other option as "by the Spirit" putting "to death the deeds of the body." Note the reference to synergy here. "You" put to death the deeds of the body. This means that it involves the free action of the human person. Even so, this is done "by the Spirit."

I checked an EO website and here is what they say about salvation and works:

Salvation is laid in the life of Christ as our foundation. However, our works for him don't earn us salvation, but neither are they unimportant. There is a reward, and that reward according to the Fathers is communion with Him more fully and completely. For the more we gain His "likeness" in this life, the more joy we will experience as we come into His presence. http://www.orthodoxconvert.info/Q-A....in%20Orthodoxy

so salvation is not the reward for works, as you said. communion with God is the reward.

For an Orthodox, "communion with God" is salvation. It is not the result of salvation, it is salvation itself. If we are out of communion with God, we will experience Hell when He fills the universe with Himself at the Second and Glorious Coming. If we are in communion with God, we will experience it as Heaven. We don't conceive of "justification" and "sanctification" as two separate things, but, following the witness of the Holy Scriptures, we consider them both to refer to the progressive cleansing of the soul and the renewal of the Divine Image.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-11) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Note here that the three terms are identified. These Christians used to be horrible sinners, but they have been given the grace to act rightly in the eyes of God- this is the washing, the sanctification, the justification. As we have no concept of imputed righteousness, there is no concept of "communion with God" being somehow separate from salvation. With all due respect Sparko, I know my Orthodox teachings very well.

You should read Chris VanLandingham's fairly recent book Justification and Judgment in Early Judaism and the Apostle Paul. It makes the case for pretty much what I'm saying. For a Roman Catholic treatment of the issue that is very in depth, please see Robert Sungenis' Not By Faith Alone. I can honestly say that after three years of fundamentally reworking my view of a lot of these things, when I read St. Paul's Letter to the Romans, I can no longer see what Protestants claim to see in it. I see no trace of salvation by an imputation of an obedient record, received by faith alone. Rather, I see salvation as the renewal of the Divine Image, based on the recapitulatory work of Jesus Christ, partaken of in living by faith because of the power of the Holy Spirit.

[OtherCheek]

"After all you can do" also represents all the faith you can muster.

[Kabane52]

"After all you can do" also represents all the faith you can muster.

OtherCheek, are you in general agreement with the Catholic and Orthodox Churches about justification and the relationship of faith and works?

[Cow Poke]

"After all you can do" also represents all the faith you can muster.

You can always ask Jesus to help you!

(Mark 9:24 KJV) And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

[Sparko]

Nope- you are still missing the issue here and are trying to fit what I'm saying into a Protestant frame of mind. Do I believe in works-based salvation? No, if by works you are referring to the type of works that one does for an employer. You go to work, do your thing, and the employer must give you your check. If he doesn't, you can take him to court because he is being unjust. You don't have any sort of relationship with the employer. The works that I speak of are the works that naturally engender communion with God. Faith is the orientation through which all of these works are done, which is why "the righteous shall live by faith. Faith is the orientation which allows us to have communion with God, rather than a distant relationship like that of an employer and an employee. If I wish to make a friend, then I can't go to his house, mow his lawn, ring his doorbell, and say, "Okay, we're friends." That's "works of the law." Trying to obligate God. Gracious work is when you speak with the friend, you spend time with your friend, things like this. It's not as if your friend is paying you with a friendship. These things that you do are naturally creating a friendship. See the difference? The works Paul condemns are specifically works of obligation:

(Romans 4:4) Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his payment.

"Work" is being used in the context of "payment." It's working like you're an employee and like God owes you something.

Uh, yes it does. Payments are not rewards. Rewards are not payments. Rewards are not owed, they are gifts. Payments are owed. If a kid gets straight As, his parents may reward him with twenty dollars. Did they owe him that money? No. Were they obligated to give him that money? No. Did they give it to him out of kindness? Yes. Did they give it to him because of what he had done? Yes.

Now, salvation adds an additional nuance to this in the fact that all the works that a person does are by the power and grace of the Holy Spirit in the first place, so that:

(Romans 8:13) For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Two options are given. First, if you live according to the flesh, you will die. This is not discussing "sanctification", which in the Protestant understanding has no relation to one's final destiny. This is discussing eternal destiny. What is the other option? How does one "live"? By faith alone, right? No! St. Paul presents the other option as "by the Spirit" putting "to death the deeds of the body." Note the reference to synergy here. "You" put to death the deeds of the body. This means that it involves the free action of the human person. Even so, this is done "by the Spirit."



For an Orthodox, "communion with God" is salvation. It is not the result of salvation, it is salvation itself. If we are out of communion with God, we will experience Hell when He fills the universe with Himself at the Second and Glorious Coming. If we are in communion with God, we will experience it as Heaven. We don't conceive of "justification" and "sanctification" as two separate things, but, following the witness of the Holy Scriptures, we consider them both to refer to the progressive cleansing of the soul and the renewal of the Divine Image.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-11) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Note here that the three terms are identified. These Christians used to be horrible sinners, but they have been given the grace to act rightly in the eyes of God- this is the washing, the sanctification, the justification. As we have no concept of imputed righteousness, there is no concept of "communion with God" being somehow separate from salvation. With all due respect Sparko, I know my Orthodox teachings very well.

You should read Chris VanLandingham's fairly recent book Justification and Judgment in Early Judaism and the Apostle Paul. It makes the case for pretty much what I'm saying. For a Roman Catholic treatment of the issue that is very in depth, please see Robert Sungenis' Not By Faith Alone. I can honestly say that after three years of fundamentally reworking my view of a lot of these things, when I read St. Paul's Letter to the Romans, I can no longer see what Protestants claim to see in it. I see no trace of salvation by an imputation of an obedient record, received by faith alone. Rather, I see salvation as the renewal of the Divine Image, based on the recapitulatory work of Jesus Christ, partaken of in living by faith because of the power of the Holy Spirit.

You are splitting hairs, Kebane. If I tell my child "If you get an A, I will give you $20" then it is a payment. we have a verbal contract for work and payment. I am obligated to give him $20 if he gets an A. His grade is his work and that puts me in debt to him for $20.

God does "pay" us with rewards for our works, but one of those payments or rewards is NOT salvation. Salvation is freely given to the faithful because of God's mercy. We do good works because we are saved and we are rewarded for them. You are saved when you believe in Jesus and accept him as your Savior. You are then adopted as a child of Gods and are saved. THEN your works can count and get you rewards. You don't have to do good works in order to BE saved in the first place!

Dictionary:
Reward: 1. Something given or received in recompense for worthy behavior or in retribution for evil acts.

Rewards ARE payment.

[OtherCheek]

They certainly do. But so do I. The question is not whether the LDS believe that works are required for salvation. Historically, most Christians have believed that works are required for salvation. The question is whether these are works of debt. Aquinas distinguished between condign merit and strict merit. We merit salvation in the sense that we perform works and God graciously rewards man with salvation for those works. We do not merit salvation in the sense that St. Paul condemns it, that is, attempting to put God in debt and obligate Him to pay us with salvation. IMO, it's still not clear that LDS believe in the latter.

You are making way too much sense K. That is exactly what Paul is saying, that our works do NOT place God in a position of debtor to us. We do good works because that is the path that Jesus tells us to travel, and which will lead to our greatest joy and happiness. I believe that God cannot violate his own natural laws. He cannot bestow rich rewards and blessing upon a person unless that person is willing to follow the path consistent with such joy and happiness.

[Cerebrum123]

You are making way too much sense K. That is exactly what Paul is saying, that our works do NOT place God in a position of debtor to us. We do good works because that is the path that Jesus tells us to travel, and which will lead to our greatest joy and happiness. I believe that God cannot violate his own natural laws. He cannot bestow rich rewards and blessing upon a person unless that person is willing to follow the path consistent with such joy and happiness.

He also can't lie, so making works a part of salvation would be doing just that.

[OtherCheek]

You are splitting hairs, Kebane. If I tell my child "If you get an A, I will give you $20" then it is a payment. we have a verbal contract for work and payment. I am obligated to give him $20 if he gets an A. His grade is his work and that puts me in debt to him for $20.

God does "pay" us with rewards for our works, but one of those payments or rewards is NOT salvation. Salvation is freely given to the faithful because of God's mercy. We do good works because we are saved and we are rewarded for them. You are saved when you believe in Jesus and accept him as your Savior. You are then adopted as a child of Gods and are saved. THEN your works can count and get you rewards. You don't have to do good works in order to BE saved in the first place!

Dictionary:
Reward: 1. Something given or received in recompense for worthy behavior or in retribution for evil acts.

Rewards ARE payment.

How about looking at it from a scriptural standpoint rather than a secular dictionary standpoint. I view all rewards of God as gifts of grace, and NONE of these rewards are given because we have somehow placed God in our debts by our faith, or our beliefs, or our deeds.

Even Romans 4:4 is not talking about placing God in our debt, though a confused person may think it does.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

A reward is a "blessing" or a "cursing" but not a payment for debt.

Matthew 24:46
Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

[Cerebrum123]

How about looking at it from a scriptural standpoint rather than a secular dictionary standpoint. I view all rewards of God as gifts of grace, and NONE of these rewards are given because we have somehow placed God in our debts by our faith, or our beliefs, or our deeds.

Even Romans 4:4 is not talking about placing God in our debt, though a confused person may think it does.
4 Now to him that worketh is the areward not breckoned of grace, but of debt.

if that's not what it means, then WHAT DOES it mean?

[Sparko]

How about looking at it from a scriptural standpoint rather than a secular dictionary standpoint. I view all rewards of God as gifts of grace, and NONE of these rewards are given because we have somehow placed God in our debts by our faith, or our beliefs, or our deeds.

Even Romans 4:4 is not talking about placing God in our debt, though a confused person may think it does.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

How about actually READING Romans 4???????

Paul is contrasting works and faith. He is showing how faith saves and works do not.

and start with Romans 3 where he first says that all of our works are useless. Nothing more than dirty rags.

Then he moves on to say that although we can't earn salvation with our works, God freely gives us salvation by imputing the righteousness of Jesus to those who BELIEVE.

R3:21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood —to be received by faith.

And to make sure you get it, he continues to talk about how the Law (obeying rules and commandments) cannot save you.

R3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Then he gives Abraham as an example of someone who was credited with righteousness because of FAITH:

R4:4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

And then he contrasts THAT example with what happens if someone thinks WORKS will save them. He first explains how work (any work) creates a debt that is paid as a wage and is therefore NOT a gift.

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.

and he says that HOWEVER, those who trust in God instead of works, get credited with righteousness.

5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

So your claim that Paul was saying that works are needed is false. He is definitely saying that FAITH is all that is required for salvation. NOT WORKS.

Get off your butt and actually READ the bible, OC!