are OC and Jeff going to hell?

[OtherCheek]

if that's not what it means, then WHAT DOES it mean?

I think Joseph Smith gave a better translation:
JST, Romans 4:4
Now to him who is justified by the law of works, is the reward reckoned, not of grace, but of debt.

But we know that justification by the law of works cannot make us clean. It is impossible to place God in our debt.

I also like this teaching from the BoM that it is always us who are in debt to God, and NEVER the other way around, as Romans 4:4 may portray for some.

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

22 And behold, all that he arequires of you is to bkeep his commandments; and he has cpromised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth dvary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do ekeep his fcommandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were acreated of the bdust of the earth; but behold, it cbelongeth to him who created you.

A reward is a "blessing" or a "cursing" but not a payment for debt. We can't place God in our debt. Or do you disagree?

Matthew 24:46
Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

[Bill the Cat]

I think Joseph Smith gave a better translation:

!!!!!!!!!!

[OtherCheek]

How about actually READING Romans 4???????

Paul is contrasting works and faith. He is showing how faith saves and works do not.

and start with Romans 3 where he first says that all of our works are useless. Nothing more than dirty rags.

Then he moves on to say that although we can't earn salvation with our works, God freely gives us salvation by imputing the righteousness of Jesus to those who BELIEVE.

R3:21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood —to be received by faith.

And to make sure you get it, he continues to talk about how the Law (obeying rules and commandments) cannot save you.

R3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Then he gives Abraham as an example of someone who was credited with righteousness because of FAITH:

R4:4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

And then he contrasts THAT example with what happens if someone thinks WORKS will save them. He first explains how work (any work) creates a debt that is paid as a wage and is therefore NOT a gift.

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.

and he says that HOWEVER, those who trust in God instead of works, get credited with righteousness.

5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

So your claim that Paul was saying that works are needed is false. He is definitely saying that FAITH is all that is required for salvation. NOT WORKS.

Get off your butt and actually READ the bible, OC!

You get off your butt, and actually know LDS doctrine before you criticize it from the standpoint of an ignorant fool.

I never claimed that Paul said that works are needed as though it were placing God in our debt. I'm just claiming that good rewards are given as blessings, and not as a repayment for debt. I also believe salvation is a blessing and a reward for obedience and faith on Jesus Christ.

[OtherCheek]

!!!!!!!!!!

Are you also one who would present LDS beliefs as teaching that by our good works we are somehow placing God in our debt.

[Bill the Cat]

Are you also one who would present LDS beliefs as teaching that by our good works we are somehow placing God in our debt.

I'm not interested in that fight. There are far too many doctrines your church holds to that are explicitly against Biblical revelation for me to worry about something like "after all you can do", which could be explained to mean just about anything.

[Cow Poke]

Get off your butt and actually READ the bible, OC!

He can read the Bible perfectly fine sitting ON his butt, Sparko!

Providing, of course, he actually READS it.

[Cow Poke]

You get off your butt, and actually know LDS doctrine before you criticize it from the standpoint of an ignorant fool.

I never claimed that Paul said that works are needed as though it were placing God in our debt. I'm just claiming that good rewards are given as blessings, and not as a repayment for debt. I also believe salvation is a blessing and a reward for obedience and faith on Jesus Christ.

Salvation is a free gift. How does one "pay for" a free gift?

[Sparko]

I think Joseph Smith gave a better translation:
JST, Romans 4:4
[COLOR="#006400"]Now to him who is justified by the law of works, is the reward reckoned, not of grace, but of debt.

OC, Even SMITH says that the one who is justified by works, his reward is reckoned as a debt!!!!

:rof: Even your own great prophet disagrees with you!!


and you can't just keep trying to take verses out of context. You have to read Romans 3 and 4 together. there were no chapter breaks in the original letter. It's all one thought

Here are some biblical commentaries on Romans 4:4

Wesley: Romans 4:4
Now to him that worketh - All that the law requires, the reward is no favour, but an absolute debt. These two examples are selected and applied with the utmost judgment and propriety. Abraham was the most illustrious pattern of piety among the Jewish patriarchs. David was the most eminent of their kings. If then neither of these was justified by his own obedience, if they both obtained acceptance with God, not as upright beings who might claim it, but as sinful creatures who must implore it, the consequence is glaring It is such as must strike every attentive understanding, and must affect every individual person.

Clarke: Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt - Therefore, if Abraham had been justified by works, the blessings he received would have been given to him as a reward for those works, and consequently his believing could have had no part in his justification, and his faith would have been useless.

Barnes: Now to him that worketh ... - This passage is not to be understood as affirming that any actually have worked out their salvation by conformity to the Law so as to be saved by their own merits; but it expresses a general truth in regard to works. On that plan, if a man were justified by his works, it would be a matter due to him. It is a general principle in regard to contracts and obligations, that where a man fulfils them he is entitled to the reward as what is due to him, and which he can claim. This is well understood in all the transactions among people. Where a man has fulfilled the terms of a contract, to pay him is not a matter of favor; he has earned it; and we are bound to pay him. So says the apostle, it would be, if a man were justified by his works. He would have a claim on God. It would be wrong not to justify him. And this is an additional reason why the doctrine cannot be true; compare Rom_11:6.
The reward - The pay, or wages. The word is commonly applied to the pay of soldiers, day-laborers, etc.; Mat_20:8; Luk_10:7; 1Ti_5:18; Jam_5:4. It has a similar meaning here.
Reckoned - Greek, Imputed. The same word which, in Rom_4:3, is rendered “counted,” and in Rom_4:22, imputed. It is used here in its strict and proper sense, to reckon that as belonging to a man which is his own, or which is due to him; see the note at Rom_4:3.
Of grace - Of favor; as a gift.
Of debt - As due; as a claim; as a fair compensation according to the contract.

[nrajeff]

Salvation is a free gift. How does one "pay for" a free gift?

If it's free, then I've already been pre-qualified as a winner, no purchase necessary? What does the BIBLE say a person needs to do in order to get this free gift? And how can it then be free, if there are strings attached?

[Cow Poke]

If it's free, then I've already been pre-qualified as a winner, no purchase necessary?

You need to accept it.

What does the BIBLE say a person needs to do in order to get this free gift?

(John 3:16 KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And how can it then be free, if there are strings attached?

EGGZackly! So STOP attaching strings!

[Sparko]

If it's free, then I've already been pre-qualified as a winner, no purchase necessary? What does the BIBLE say a person needs to do in order to get this free gift? And how can it then be free, if there are strings attached?

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

I see nothing there about works, just faith.

[Cerebrum123]

I think Joseph Smith gave a better translation:
JST, Romans 4:4
Now to him who is justified by the law of works, is the reward reckoned, not of grace, but of debt.

But we know that justification by the law of works cannot make us clean. It is impossible to place God in our debt.

I also like this teaching from the BoM that it is always us who are in debt to God, and NEVER the other way around, as Romans 4:4 may portray for some.

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

22 And behold, all that he arequires of you is to bkeep his commandments; and he has cpromised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth dvary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do ekeep his fcommandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were acreated of the bdust of the earth; but behold, it cbelongeth to him who created you.

A reward is a "blessing" or a "cursing" but not a payment for debt. We can't place God in our debt. Or do you disagree?

Matthew 24:46
Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Even with Joseph Smith's version you still don't have Biblical support, it makes me wonder why you even bother quoting the Bible since you don't take it authoritatively on this matter.

[nrajeff]

You need to accept it.

Isn't that a string? Suppose a college offers a scholarship to any high school senior who will apply for it and accept it. Using the "reasoning" some of you have been using, those "works" should count as things the student must DO in order to "earn" the scholarship. And that makes the scholarship a PAYMENT the student gets for doing what he was told was necessary in order to get it. WAGES, in other words. You guys have seemed to be saying "Even if the work you must do is trivially out of proportion in comparison to the greatness of the wages, it's still a work-based, or wages-based, system if you must do ANYTHING and get SOMETHING as a result of what you DID."

Right?

And doesn't your answer mean that God DOES offer the free gift of salvation to literally everyone, making the idea of "predestinated damnation" a heretical, false doctrine?

(John 3:16 KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So STOP attaching strings!

Seems like you have attached some strings to a supposedly "nothing-based" salvation system.

[Cow Poke]

Isn't that a string?

The teacher was complaining that her students were lazy. She got on somewhat of a rant, and said, "In fact, I have $20 for the student who admits he's the laziest student in the class!

Every hand went up except little Jeff.

Teacher asked Jeff... "Jeffie, don't YOU want a FREE $20 Bill?"

Jeff, slumped down in his seat, mumbled "just slip it in my pocket".


No, Jeff, "accepting a free gift" is NOT a string.

Christmas Morning must be a real riot at your house.

[nrajeff]

Romans 10:9 If you declare

Which is something a person DOES so isn't it time to cry about works and wages being involved in the transaction?

with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart

But isn't the heart a most treacherous deceiver, that shouldn't be trusted because it involves FEELINGS which might just be something an evil spirit is making you feel?

11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

You sure seem to be hell-bent on putting the LDS to shame, despite their belief in their hearts, and their professions with their mouth, that Jesus is Lord.

Do have an explanation/excuse prepared for the day when you need to give an account to Jesus for what you have done and are currently doing?

I see nothing there about works, just faith.

Do you see nothing about OBEDIENCE to Christ's commandments, without which your faith is non-existent?