are OC and Jeff going to hell?

[Sparko]

The meaning of "after all you can do" has been explained already. But it didn't register, apparently. Jesus Christ didn't atone for the purpose of granting some favored elect a free license to sin. But that's the Jesus I believe in. Different Jesus, you know.

except if you can just say "sorry, I repent" later, then you have exactly what you are complaining about: a license to sin. You can do whatever you want and then repent later, right? How is that any different from what you accuse us of believing? "after all you can do" means exactly NOTHING if you are correct.

It serves the purpose of teaching us that even after our best efforts, it is still by grace that we are saved. Instead of enticing us to think that Jesus gave us a free license to sin--kinda like "after all you can sin".

nope it doesn't because you just said that even after NOT doing your best, you are still saved. Just repent.

So, What if your "believing" or your "faith" slackens for a day? Do you go to hell for that?

No OC. We are forgiven of ALL of our sins when we accept Jesus as our savior, past and future. It is by grace we are saved and not by works. We do good works because we are saved and we are new creations in Christ. We do it out of gratitude, not obligation.

[OtherCheek]

except if you can just say "sorry, I repent" later, then you have exactly what you are complaining about: a license to sin. You can do whatever you want and then repent later, right? How is that any different from what you accuse us of believing? "after all you can do" means exactly NOTHING if you are correct.

It might do you some good to study the topic of "Repentance". Beyond a simple dictionary definition,

nope it doesn't because you just said that even after NOT doing your best, you are still saved. Just repent.

Doing all one can do includes repentance, which you should study btw.

No OC. We are forgiven of ALL of our sins when we accept Jesus as our savior, past and future. It is by grace we are saved and not by works. We do good works because we are saved and we are new creations in Christ. We do it out of gratitude, not obligation.

It doesn't show that you are a new creature. When is that supposed to show?

[Kabane52]

I don't know whether anyone will be saved or damned in the life to come. We can't split the human race up into the saved elite and the damned lower classes. The Church's vocation is to preach the gospel in its fullness to all men and intercede for the whole world. Beyond that, we worry about our own sins and do not profess to know where any individual will end up on the Day of Judgment. If I believe an Evangelical, despite having an enormously flawed understanding of the gospel, might be saved in the life to come, then I can believe the same about a Latter-day Saint.

Anyway, LDS don't believe that man must remain sinless in order to be saved. They just reject the Protestant understanding of Sola Fide. I had one LDS person tell me he accepted pretty much what the Council of Trent taught about justification, which is perfectly fine with me. I think Trent got almost everything right on justification. I'm not sure if that's the official LDS position, though.

Jeff and OC, my understanding is that salvation flows entirely from grace. We participate in this grace through a relationship of faith, and we enliven this relationship of faith by our works. Grace through faith through works of love. Would you say this is accurate?

[Sparko]

It might do you some good to study the topic of "Repentance". Beyond a simple dictionary definition,

It might do you some good to actually engage in a discussion instead of avoiding it and making snide comments.

If all you have to do is repent, then what good does it do to say "after all you can do"? You can slack off all your life and then repent and all is wiped clean. Heck I bet in LDS theology you can even repent AFTER you die, right?

[OtherCheek]

It might do you some good to actually engage in a discussion instead of avoiding it and making snide comments.

If all you have to do is repent, then what good does it do to say "after all you can do"? You can slack off all your life and then repent and all is wiped clean. Heck I bet in LDS theology you can even repent AFTER you die, right?

You needn't worry yourself. God will know sincere repentance when he sees it. And he will know insincere repentance when he sees that too.
I'm not worried. I'm glad God can see my heart and knows what is inside.

How about you do some studying of "repentance" before you write anything more.

[Cow Poke]

I think Smith really screwed up adding "after all you can do" to "grace through faith". You guys seem to have to explain that away, while still sounding like it's a vital part of the Salvation process.

[Sparko]

You needn't worry yourself. God will know sincere repentance when he sees it. And he will know insincere repentance when he sees that too.
I'm not worried. I'm glad God can see my heart and knows what is inside.

How about you do some studying of "repentance" before you write anything more.

wash. rinse. repeat.

OC is stuck in a loop.

OC, when you ask US about "cheap grace" and why we believe that we are saved by grace alone and you claim that is a license to sin, we explain to you that God knows if you are sinning because of human weakness or doing it because you just think you have a license to sin. Paul even goes over that in "romans 6: 6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

Yet here you are saying the exact same thing about the LDS idea of salvation, which means that "after all you can do" is just words to you, and you actually believe the same as we do, yet are afraid to just admit it. You, OC, are closer to believing the same as WE do and less than what the LDS church teaches, you heretic you.

[OtherCheek]

I think Smith really screwed up adding "after all you can do" to "grace through faith". You guys seem to have to explain that away, while still sounding like it's a vital part of the Salvation process.

Joseph didn't add it. It was put there by an ancient American prophet named Nephi. And we don't have to explain anything away. It's the those who think that the Atonement of Christ provides a free license to sin, that have attempted to "explain it away."

[Sparko]

I think Smith really screwed up adding "after all you can do" to "grace through faith". You guys seem to have to explain that away, while still sounding like it's a vital part of the Salvation process.

eggggzactly. I think OC at least, instinctively knows that the "after all you can do" would condemn him, so he rationalizes it away with his "repentance" clause.

There might be hope for him yet.

[Cow Poke]

Joseph didn't add it. It was put there by an ancient American prophet named Nephi.

Who is a creation of Joseph Smith.

And we don't have to explain anything away.

Sure you do. At least one of you guys admits your religion is a "works based" religion, and others get rather agitated arguing it's not. The "all you can do" thing is pretty much the central basis for the "works based" claim. Eph 2:8-10 works FINE without "after all you can do".

It's the those who think that the Atonement of Christ provides a free license to sin, that have attempted to "explain it away."

Again I ask, OC --- WHO THINKS that? Can you show ANY OF US who made that claim?

[Cow Poke]

eggggzactly. I think OC at least, instinctively knows that the "after all you can do" would condemn him, so he rationalizes it away with his "repentance" clause.

There might be hope for him yet.

Well, now he's on this "free license to sin" nonsense.

[Sparko]

Well, now he's on this "free license to sin" nonsense.

and I keep pointing out to him that he is under that same condemnation with his "just repent" clause.

[Cow Poke]

and I keep pointing out to him that he is under that same condemnation with his "just repent" clause.

Well, actually, I can think of a difference, maybe. I'll start a new thread - help me clarify the concept, if you don't mind.

[OtherCheek]

wash. rinse. repeat.

OC is stuck in a loop.

OC, when you ask US about "cheap grace" and why we believe that we are saved by grace alone and you claim that is a license to sin, we explain to you that God knows if you are sinning because of human weakness or doing it because you just think you have a license to sin. Paul even goes over that in "romans 6: 6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

Talk about "stuck in a loop". First, when did I ask you about "cheap grace"? Quote please?

And after you fail at that, perhaps you can explain how verse 2 completely absolves you of all personal responsibility and action. Does being "dead to sin" mean that you can keep on sinning because though you are Christian you still can't help yourself, but no matter, there will be no ill effect on you? Or, rather, is Paul asking the followers of Christ to "don't even entertain the thought that you can keep on sinning. If Christ has made you "dead to sin" why would you ruin all that by continuing to sin?"

Yet here you are saying the exact same thing about the LDS idea of salvation, which means that "after all you can do" is just words to you, and you actually believe the same as we do, yet are afraid to just admit it. You, OC, are closer to believing the same as WE do and less than what the LDS church teaches, you heretic you.

And you still believe that Christ gave you a free license to sin, you heretic you.

I notice that you fail every time to quote the entire scripture that contains the words "after all we can do." Why is that?

[Cow Poke]

I notice that you fail every time to quote the entire scripture that contains the words "after all we can do." Why is that?

Because we're in full agreement with the "saved by Grace" part! It's the part Smith ADDED that is worrisome.