are OC and Jeff going to hell?

[OtherCheek]

and I keep pointing out to him that he is under that same condemnation with his "just repent" clause.

Where did I say "just repent"? I did bring up the concept of repentance, (which I have never seen you eager to address), but I never portrayed repentance as the light matter that you seem to suppose it is. Repentance is a serious thing, for your information.

[Cow Poke]

Because we're in full agreement with the "saved by Grace" part! It's the part Smith ADDED that is worrisome.

The LDS Bible Dictionary tell us that the grace unto "eternal life and exaltation" is insufficient "without total effort on the part of the recipient":

"This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man's weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, 'It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do' (2 Ne. 25:23)" (p. 697).

Here, "after all you can do" is equated to "total effort", and grace cannot suffice without it.

[Cow Poke]

Where did I say "just repent"? I did bring up the concept of repentance, (which I have never seen you eager to address), but I never portrayed repentance as the light matter that you seem to suppose it is. Repentance is a serious thing, for your information.

Repentance is a key concept, OC. We repent when we are saved, and I believe repentance is necessary when we sin AFTER being saved, NOT because we lose our Salvation, but because it is damaging to our FELLOWSHIP with Christ. I'm explaining this in the new thread I started, and I'd appreciate your input there.

[OtherCheek]

Repentance is a key concept, OC. We repent when we are saved, and I believe repentance is necessary when we sin AFTER being saved, NOT because we lose our Salvation, but because it is damaging to our FELLOWSHIP with Christ. I'm explaining this in the new thread I started, and I'd appreciate your input there.

Thanks. I'm trying to explain this to Sparko right now.

It looks like both you (CP) and I (OC) view repentance as a very serious thing. The only difference here seems to be that I believe a person can lose his salvation over it and you do not.

[Sparko]

Talk about "stuck in a loop". First, when did I ask you about "cheap grace"? Quote please?

every time you mention "license to sin"

And after you fail at that, perhaps you can explain how verse 2 completely absolves you of all personal responsibility and action. Does being "dead to sin" mean that you can keep on sinning because though you are Christian you still can't help yourself, but no matter, there will be no ill effect on you? Or, rather, is Paul asking the followers of Christ to "don't even entertain the thought that you can keep on sinning. If Christ has made you "dead to sin" why would you ruin all that by continuing to sin?"

Paul is saying that although we are not condemned by our sins after being saved and being in Christ, we don't take that as a license to sin, because that would basically be disrespecting God and Jesus' sacrifice. We have chosen to follow God, so why would we even WANT to sin on purpose? We might still do it out of human weakness but not out of some sense of "oh well I am saved so I can sin all I want to"

And you still believe that Christ gave you a free license to sin, you heretic you.

No, you believe that about us.

I notice that you fail every time to quote the entire scripture that contains the words "after all we can do." Why is that?

There ISN'T any scripture that says "after all we can do"?

[Cow Poke]

Thanks. I'm trying to explain this to Sparko right now.

It looks like both you (CP) and I (OC) view repentance as a very serious thing. The only difference here seems to be that I believe a person can lose his salvation over it and you do not.

No, OC... that's NOT the "only difference". The BIG difference is that your religion is a "works based" religion, REQUIRING works as a part of Salvation. Big difference.

[OtherCheek]

No, OC... that's NOT the "only difference". The BIG difference is that your religion is a "works based" religion, REQUIRING works as a part of Salvation. Big difference.

If by that you mean that obedience is a requirement for heaven, then yes. But after all the obedience, it is still by grace that we are saved. Maybe you and Sparko can deal with the whole scripture, and not just 5 words of it.

[OtherCheek]

No, OC... that's NOT the "only difference". The BIG difference is that your religion is a "works based" religion, REQUIRING works as a part of Salvation. Big difference.

If by that you mean that obedience is a requirement for heaven, then yes. But after all the obedience, it is still by grace that we are saved. Maybe you and Sparko can deal with the whole scripture, and not just 5 words of it.

[Sparko]

If by that you mean that obedience is a requirement for heaven, then yes. But after all the obedience, it is still by grace that we are saved. Maybe you and Sparko can deal with the whole scripture, and not just 5 words of it.

What you don't seem to realize is that the two concepts cancel each other out. If you are working for something then it isn't a free gift. grace is the free gift. It is what God does for us despite the fact that we don't deserve it. If the condition is that you have to work for it first (obedience is a work) then you are earning your salvation, and God OWES you the salvation as a "pay check" for your work. In other words you are trying to make God obligated to save you because of your obedience. You are attempting to make God owe you a debt. You can't have God owing you salvation and giving you salvation as a free gift at the same time.

This is exactly what Paul is talking about in Romans 4.

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

You know OC, I find myself quoting the book of Romans to you over and over, refuting the teachings of the LDS. Is Romans a book that mormons are discouraged from reading? Because Paul is very clear in Romans about works and grace. I think you should take the time to sit down and read it. Preferably in a modern english translation like the NIV.

Please?

[Cerebrum123]

If by that you mean that obedience is a requirement for heaven, then yes. But after all the obedience, it is still by grace that we are saved. Maybe you and Sparko can deal with the whole scripture, and not just 5 words of it.

Those 5 words along with your words that obedience is a "requirement" for salvation are VERY revealing about LDS doctrine. Shows that LDS is pretty much the same(in principle, but not detail) as all other false religions, and that is that you must EARN your way to heaven. This is blatantly false, and the Bible is VERY clear that we do NOT EARN our salvation, but that is a GIFT.

[OtherCheek]

Those 5 words along with your words that obedience is a "requirement" for salvation are VERY revealing about LDS doctrine. Shows that LDS is pretty much the same(in principle, but not detail) as all other false religions, and that is that you must EARN your way to heaven. This is blatantly false, and the Bible is VERY clear that we do NOT EARN our salvation, but that is a GIFT.

"Faith without works is dead" Five words from the Bible. Not to be understood by referring to any other scripture from the Bible, but only to be understood in isolation from other verses.

[OtherCheek]

What you don't seem to realize is that the two concepts cancel each other out. If you are working for something then it isn't a free gift. grace is the free gift. It is what God does for us despite the fact that we don't deserve it. If the condition is that you have to work for it first (obedience is a work) then you are earning your salvation, and God OWES you the salvation as a "pay check" for your work. In other words you are trying to make God obligated to save you because of your obedience. You are attempting to make God owe you a debt. You can't have God owing you salvation and giving you salvation as a free gift at the same time.

This is exactly what Paul is talking about in Romans 4.

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

You know OC, I find myself quoting the book of Romans to you over and over, refuting the teachings of the LDS. Is Romans a book that mormons are discouraged from reading? Because Paul is very clear in Romans about works and grace. I think you should take the time to sit down and read it. Preferably in a modern english translation like the NIV.

Please?

I'm referring to the scripture from the BoM that your op refers to, knucklehead. Perhaps you can address it as a whole instead of just 5 words in total isolation. The one that says "...after all we can do."

Also this verse in Romans doesn't mean that our works are not required. It only is saying that the atonement (grace) is not a payment for our works. Which I agree with.

[Sparko]

I'm referring to the scripture from the BoM that your op refers to, knucklehead. Perhaps you can address it as a whole instead of just 5 words in total isolation.

I was doing that in the post you just ignored, OC.

The verse in the BoM says you have to earn salvation and that it is by grace (free). That makes the two concepts conflict with each other.

so to repeat myself:

What you don't seem to realize is that the two concepts cancel each other out. If you are working for something then it isn't a free gift. grace is the free gift. It is what God does for us despite the fact that we don't deserve it. If the condition is that you have to work for it first (obedience is a work) then you are earning your salvation, and God OWES you the salvation as a "pay check" for your work. In other words you are trying to make God obligated to save you because of your obedience. You are attempting to make God owe you a debt. You can't have God owing you salvation and giving you salvation as a free gift at the same time.

This is exactly what Paul is talking about in Romans 4.

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

You know OC, I find myself quoting the book of Romans to you over and over, refuting the teachings of the LDS. Is Romans a book that mormons are discouraged from reading? Because Paul is very clear in Romans about works and grace. I think you should take the time to sit down and read it. Preferably in a modern english translation like the NIV.

Please?

[Cow Poke]

If by that you mean that obedience is a requirement for heaven, then yes. But after all the obedience, it is still by grace that we are saved.

Grace is unmerited favor, OC. Why do I need unmerited favor if I'm "meriting" it?

Maybe you and Sparko can deal with the whole scripture, and not just 5 words of it.

I addressed that in Post #60.

[Cow Poke]

"Faith without works is dead" Five words from the Bible. Not to be understood by referring to any other scripture from the Bible, but only to be understood in isolation from other verses.

You left "grace" out of the equation.