are OC and Jeff going to hell?

[Sparko]

]

wrong. i never argued that the atonement was a payment for works.

But your straw man is that this is what the LDS Church teaches.

OC if works are a requirement of salvation then salvation IS a payment for your works.

so where did I mention "atonement was the payment for works?" Do you understand the difference between the Atonement and Salvation? Salvation is what the Atonement gets us. In other words the Atonement is the payment for our debt of sin, that purchases us the righteousness of Christ. In other words, work doesn't substitute even in part for the atonement. The LDS theology says that your works assist Christ's atonement in getting you salvation. It does not.

When you can get the concepts straight in your addled mind, get back to me.

I said that Paul argued AGAINST working for SALVATION in Romans 4, because if you work for something then you are trying to make someone owe you for your work. If you are WORKING for SALVATION then you are trying to make God OWE you salvation as payment for that work. But God doesn't "work" that way. He gives us salvation freely for our faith and choosing him. Because he knows we could never earn our salvation because as Romans says when Paul quotes Isaiah "all our righteous acts are as rags"

You lost me after "because".

The LDS scriptures don't teach that the gift of salvation is anything like a "wage for working" as you try to portray or imply. That is just as false a notion as me implying that Paul teaches that the gift of salvation is like a "wage for choosing."

OC, the LDS church does teach that your works help to earn your salvation. You can deny it all you want but we have already posted quotes from your leaders on the matter. The fact that you disagree with them is a GOOD sign. It means that there is hope for you yet.

In the LDS view, Ananias and his wife Sapphira could lose their salvation for "holding back." Especially for holding back spiritually and not giving or sacrificing their whole heart, might, mind, and strength to the Lord.

Could Ananias and his wife Sapphira lose their salvation in your view?

I don't know if they had salvation to begin with, OC, but if they did, then they could not lose it by holding back.

[Cow Poke]

I don't know if they had salvation to begin with, OC, but if they did, then they could not lose it by holding back.

Yeah, but they DID get DEAD, and it WASN'T from Peter's fierce anger using his priesthood power.

[Sparko]

Yeah, but they DID get DEAD, and it WASN'T from Peter's fierce anger using his priesthood power.

That's OK because Barnabas wasn't an apostle, he was a vampire, and he bit Ananias and brought him back from the grave, and he hid out in the secret Catholic vaults during the day so that Peter never found out.

[Cow Poke]

That's just stupid, and dishonest of you to claim that.

You're such a copy cat.

You're saying that because salt is a tiny, but necessary, ingredient in your body chemistry, you are a salt-BASED life form.

You're hearing those voices again, aren't you?

[Sparko]

y'know. I am surprised that Jo never tried to claim that the Ananias who Peter killed was the same guy who Paul went to after his visit by Jesus. AND the high priest mentioned in Acts.

[Cow Poke]

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 does teach this, but these rewards are additional to and not equivalent to salvation itself.

Jeffie did that thing again where he jumps into the middle of a conversation without knowing the whole context.

[OtherCheek]

so where did I mention "atonement was the payment for works?" Do you understand the difference between the Atonement and Salvation? Salvation is what the Atonement gets us. In other words the Atonement is the payment for our debt of sin, that purchases us the righteousness of Christ. In other words, work doesn't substitute even in part for the atonement. The LDS theology says that your works assist Christ's atonement in getting you salvation. It does not.

When you can get the concepts straight in your addled mind, get back to me.




OC, the LDS church does teach that your works help to earn your salvation. You can deny it all you want but we have already posted quotes from your leaders on the matter. The fact that you disagree with them is a GOOD sign. It means that there is hope for you yet.

I don't know if they had salvation to begin with, OC, but if they did, then they could not lose it by holding back.

The LDS are taught that they must give their whole heart, soul, might, mind and strength to God and not hold back. I guess this is a big difference between our faiths.

Your portrayal of our beliefs is what is all wacked out of proportion. You make it sound as though we believe that the atonement of Christ is a wage to repay us for our obedience. That idea has never been proposed by any LDS leader.

You asked for LDS scripture about grace, but I'm still waiting for you to address the whole verse that you allude to in the op of this thread, and not just the 5 words of "after all you can do". Do you make it a habit of addressing Bible verses in isolation? Or is it just uniquely LDS scripture that you do this to?

[OtherCheek]

so where did I mention "atonement was the payment for works?" Do you understand the difference between the Atonement and Salvation? Salvation is what the Atonement gets us. In other words the Atonement is the payment for our debt of sin, that purchases us the righteousness of Christ. In other words, work doesn't substitute even in part for the atonement. The LDS theology says that your works assist Christ's atonement in getting you salvation. It does not.

Then "salvation is payment for works" may have been a better way to describe your faulty portrayal of our teachings. Either way, I can still mischaracterize your beliefs by saying that you believe that "salvation is payment for a choice".

[Kabane52]

Sparko, do you understand the difference between a payment and a reward? A payment is something that God is obligated to give. A reward is something that God gives, but was not obligated to give. God rewards those who seek Him. God is not required to pay them for anything. "Earning" only has to do with payment, not gracious reward.

(Hebrews 11:6) And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Faith is necessary for the very reason that God rewards those who seek Him. As you know, I'm not LDS, but I can't see where the LDS teach we actually earn our salvation, any more than the Roman Catholic or Orthodox Churches teach that we can earn our salvation.

[Sparko]

The LDS are taught that they must give their whole heart, soul, might, mind and strength to God and not hold back. I guess this is a big difference between our faiths.

No OC. We believe we should
Mark 12:30
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’

That is not works, that is faith and loyalty. That is not even what we are talking about. We are talking about works. After all you can DO. Not after all you believe, or love. Trying to pull a switcheroo in the middle of a discussion is typical of you.

Your portrayal of our beliefs is what is all wacked out of proportion. You make it sound as though we believe that the atonement of Christ is a wage to repay us for our obedience. That idea has never been proposed by any LDS leader.

It is the consequence of your "after all we can do" doctrine.

You asked for LDS scripture about grace, but I'm still waiting for you to address the whole verse that you allude to in the op of this thread, and not just the 5 words of "after all you can do". Do you make it a habit of addressing Bible verses in isolation? Or is it just uniquely LDS scripture that you do this to?

I have addressed the entire verse, and CP has address the entire verse several times. I did so in this post and in my last post and the post before that.

Simply ignoring that and repeating yourself again? Again, typical OC. Change the topic. Pretend people are not answering YOU when the thread is not even yours to begin with, and then crying about how mean the anti's are to you.

[Sparko]

I can still mischaracterize your beliefs by saying that you believe that "salvation is payment for a choice".

Yes you can. big of you to admit it finally. You mischaracterize our beliefs all the time.

[Sparko]

Sparko, do you understand the difference between a payment and a reward? A payment is something that God is obligated to give. A reward is something that God gives, but was not obligated to give. God rewards those who seek Him. God is not required to pay them for anything. "Earning" only has to do with payment, not gracious reward.

(Hebrews 11:6) And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Faith is necessary for the very reason that God rewards those who seek Him. As you know, I'm not LDS, but I can't see where the LDS teach we actually earn our salvation, any more than the Roman Catholic or Orthodox Churches teach that we can earn our salvation.

then maybe you should read this thread from the beginning. they teach that they get saved only after all they can do to be perfect and do good works. The good works are a requirement BEFORE they can be saved. It has nothing to do with rewarding obedience. It has everything to do with obligating God to save them because they work for it.

what you may not understand is that OC is not spouting the Party Line in this thread. He is obviously embarrassed and disagrees with what the LDS church teaches, and yet he can't bring himself to say that outright, so instead he tries to claim that the LDS church does not believe in works as a requirement of salvation, when in fact they do. We have quoted actual leaders of the LDS church saying so.

[Cow Poke]

That's just stupid, and dishonest of you to claim that.

You're calling one of your OWN MORMON GOSPEL BUDDIES Stupid and Dishonest??!?!?!

You're saying that because salt is a tiny, but necessary, ingredient in your body chemistry, you are a salt-BASED life form.

Why don't you skewl 141 on that, Jeff?

Yes, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has always been a works based religion. This is because the The Church of Jesus Christ in former days was also a works based religion.

Couldn't be more clear, could it? And I believe him cause....

A) He's nicer than you
2) He's never (to my knowledge) claimed to be a Danite
D) He's never been dumb according to some

AND, I have a picture of two ducks wearing sunglasses somewhere!

[nrajeff]

D) He's never been dumb according to some

If he is LDS, he is dumb according to Sparko, who said IIRC that a person would have to be dumb to believe LDS doctrines.

[Sparko]

If he is LDS, he is dumb according to Sparko, who said IIRC that a person would have to be dumb to believe LDS doctrines.

considering how transparently fake Smith was with his claims and motives, I think anyone who did any in depth study of him would have to be dumb to believe what he shoveled out.