The creation of time and space? What!

[Cow Poke]

Gods nature doesn't factor in to the problem. Be he immaterial or material, you can't say that he existed "before" his creation, unless there was a before, and a before implies the existence of "time" before.

Why?

[JimL]

Jim, whan will you give up on personal incredulity? So far that is all you have given me.

When you give me "reason" rather than personal credulity!

[JimL]

For me in both science and my view of God there exists absolute time in an infinite eternal matrix, both spiritual and physical. Our universe came into existence. and our relative time/space existence began with the expansion of the universe.

So, how are you fitting God the creator into this view of an eternal infinite matrix? Seems a bit Pantheistic to me.

[Jedidiah]

If our universe is a finite bubble floating within an eternal spacetime, which I believe is the conclusion of most scientists today, . . .

This is not the CONCLUSION or most scientists today, it is the ASSUMPTION of many of them however.

[Jedidiah]

So, how are you fitting God the creator into this view of an eternal infinite matrix? Seems a bit Pantheistic to me.

It is just Shuny.

[magellan004]

Gods nature doesn't factor in to the problem. Be he immaterial or material, you can't say that he existed "before" his creation, unless there was a before, and a before implies the existence of "time" before.

I look at it from the point of view of 'Creation'. If a person creates an object, say a statue, then the sculptor existed before the statue. What if the creator makes 'Time'? The creator existed before 'Time'. The word 'before' becomes rather strained here though.

Magellan

[Tassman]

Ahh - another one! 'Empirical', 'Verifiable', now 'Credible'. Keep plugging the holes on the leaky boat 'HMS Dissmissal'.

Magellan

I was trying to be diplomatic re your delusional belief in an alleged invisible sky god. But if you prefer: There IS considerable evidence that space-time exists. And there is NO evidence that deities exist. So, shouldn’t it be easier to believe something that has some evidence than something that has none?

[robertb]

If our universe is a finite bubble floating within an eternal spacetime, which I believe is the conclusion of most scientists today, then a God did not create either space or time, and if space and time are eternal, then what need is there to posit the existence of a creator?

I am not sure I follow your logic. For this example, our universe is one finite spacetime existing in another infinte spacetime. Therefore positing God as the creator of our finite spacetime is not defeated by an external infinite spacetime, as this spacetime is separate from our own. If that is clear.

[MaxVel]

If God existed before the universe existed, then how can God have created time? Doesn't the fact that God existed "before" his creation and that the universe existed "after" God, imply that time existed with God? Doesn't a universe that did not exist "before" but now exists "after" imply the existence of time previous to the creation of the universe?

I think the use of 'before' and 'after' here may be either -

(a) figurative language - we have to use some word to describe God's relation to creation; or

(b) used in a 'logical precedence' sense rather than a strict temporal sense. That is, God is logically prior to His creation. If time began when God created, then strictly speaking there is no 'before' time began.

And what about space? If God created space, where was he before he created it? Seems to me that the more logical argument is that spacetime always existed.

Or you could go with what has always been the Christian view of God; He doesn't exist inside spacetime - He transcends it as an immaterial being. Have you really never come across that before??

[magellan004]

I was trying to be diplomatic re your delusional belief in an alleged invisible sky god. But if you prefer: There IS considerable evidence that space-time exists. And there is NO evidence that deities exist. So, shouldn’t it be easier to believe something that has some evidence than something that has none?

There is as much evidence as you want to accept.
All we have are 1. Our own experience and 2. Reports from other people.
If you have something that is above, extra, more than these two ways of collecting evidence then let me know.

I imagine you will wish to reply 'But my reports are from so and so and this group of experts agrees with those reports' . How does that change anything? You accept the reports you like and discard the stuff you don't like.

By the way - you are diplomatic. I appreciate that you don't use insults.

Magellan

[JimL]

I look at it from the point of view of 'Creation'. If a person creates an object, say a statue, then the sculptor existed before the statue. What if the creator makes 'Time'? The creator existed before 'Time'. The word 'before' becomes rather strained here though.

Magellan

Which should tell you something Magellan, if there is a before creation, then time already exists before the thing created. I think the law of noncontradiction comes into play here. There can't be a before time, unless a time before that which comes after exists.

[JimL]

I am not sure I follow your logic. For this example, our universe is one finite spacetime existing in another infinte spacetime. Therefore positing God as the creator of our finite spacetime is not defeated by an external infinite spacetime, as this spacetime is separate from our own. If that is clear.

But I think that you are just pushing the scenario back one step where you then come across the same problem. If there is an eternal infinite spacetime, then a God didn't create it, its eternal. If it is eternal, then there is no need to posit the existence of a creator.

[JimL]

I think the use of 'before' and 'after' here may be either -

(a) figurative language - we have to use some word to describe God's relation to creation; or

Only if you presume creation.

(b) used in a 'logical precedence' sense rather than a strict temporal sense. That is, God is logically prior to His creation. If time began when God created, then strictly speaking there is no 'before' time began.

You can't use it as a logical precedence if it is illogical. Logically prior to time is illogical. But to say that there is no "before" time began is as much as to say that time is eternal.

Or you could go with what has always been the Christian view of God; He doesn't exist inside spacetime - He transcends it as an immaterial being. Have you really never come across that before??

Yes, I have heard it, and I answered to it above. Transcendent, being outside of creation itself does nothing to negate a "time before" creation.

[robertb]

But I think that you are just pushing the scenario back one step where you then come across the same problem. If there is an eternal infinite spacetime, then a God didn't create it, its eternal. If it is eternal, then there is no need to posit the existence of a creator.

I am not positing a creator to explain the existence of the eternal infinite spacetime as such would seem to preclude creation by definition. I am saying that this does not, in itself, preclude a creator for our finite universe that exists within an eternal infinite spacetime.

[MaxVel]

Only if you presume creation.

That's a very silly thing to say in the context of a response to your OP, which is asking 'How can God create if...?'. You are assuming that it is possible that God did create, and asking how it can work. Responding like that tells me that you're not serious about responses that may actually address the issues you raise.

You can't use it as a logical precedence if it is illogical. Logically prior to time is illogical.

Logical priority or causal priority is not the same thing as temporal (i.e. time priority).

But to say that there is no "before" time began is as much as to say that time is eternal.

No. Until time exists there is no way to differentiate events or actions in a (time) sequence.

Yes, I have heard it, and I answered to it above. Transcendent, being outside of creation itself does nothing to negate a "time before" creation.

You said:

If God created space, where was he before he created it?

That question 'Where was God...' shows either that you are ignorant of basic Christian concepts of God (and thus are attacking strawmen); or (since you say that you are not ignorant of it) that you can't grasp basic Christian concepts, and aren't really ready to argue against Christianity. It's the equivalent of someone asking an evolutionist to 'point out the monkey in the zoo that they are descended from'.