converting

[raynin]

Hello,


New to the forum, after a long and devoted life of studying and believing in Jesus as the jewish messiah I have finally come to the
reality that he was not the messiah. It is almost like seeing for the first time. At first I felt that the noahide laws might be enough for
me, but then I realized there was a deeper calling within me regarding this. Once I learned what G-d's laws were I knew I needed
to follow them and imprint them on my heart. Which I think now is my calling to convert to judisim. I am a woman and struggling
with what branch to convert into, I know orthodox conversions are the only ones considered universally to be valid but know that
tract is not for me. I fall more conservative, but not completely liberal. I have read a lot and studied like crazy and I am still
not absolutely sure what branch I need.
I am even moving so I can be near a synogague to start the process, but just hoping to make the right choice. Any suggestions?
Also can I start following kosher laws now? even thought I haven't offically begun the process? reciting the shema? or should I just wait
untill I begin the formal process and fully accept the laws and commandements?

Thanks in advance for any helpful replies.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Shalom raynin

The differing branches of Judaism are more representative of different levels of observance than different beliefs. The conceptual differences are more a matter of strict adherence to past traditions versus adapting to the modern world. As you are not sure of what level of observance you want to follow, I’d advise holding off on your move for now. Instead I’d recommend actually attending services at differing synagogues to see which meets your needs. Be aware that precise observances vary based on each particular rabbi. There is variability within each denomination, local minhag so to speak.

Yes, you can change your eating habits whenever you want. There are lots of rules on being kosher and certain specifics will vary on minhag. Don’t worry about being exactly right, just starting with baby steps is good. Judaism doesn’t aim for perfection, but for meaningful steps and good effort.

[John D. Brey]

New to the forum, after a long and devoted life of studying and believing in Jesus as the jewish messiah I have finally come to the
reality that he was not the messiah.

Would it distract from your mission, to share with us the details of how you came to believe that your belief in Jesus was flawed?

[raynin]

I have no problem answering questions or discussing anything, as far as thining that Jesus is flawed that began about a year ago...when I really began to do my digging. The first thing for me to question was the practice of christians celebrating Christmas and easter. Christians will openly admit Jesus was not born on christmas, or risen on easter. So then I began to think Jehovah's witness had the right idea etc. Further research showed me that those holidays were made to reflect pagan holidays, xmas trees christanity's very own idol that we put up every year and try to say its about jesus. I stopped celebrating holidays like that except when forced to due to family obligations. Further investigation showed that Jesus and horus were extremely similar. to similar....errily similar. coincidence? I was whorshiping a "demi" god...herculces style. Sounds stupid when put that way. Also after reading some interesting articles reflecting that Jewish people have always read the hebrew scriptures first, and then the new testament had to prove its validity through the hebrew bible. Not the other way around which is how christians are taught. Matter of fact we are taught to skip reading the old testment and go straight to the "roman road" When you try to proof the new testament through the hebrew scriptures you realize how invalid they really are. There are two verses in the hebrew scripture that really sold me. There were other things but the two that really did and if you can answer them I would interested to hear your response. 1. God abhorrs human sacrafice especially the sacrafice of the sons. THIS makes no sense when trying to add jesus to the mix. It makes God contradict him self...which well I don't believe. 2. Each man will pay for his own sin according to what he has done. Again? what? how then can jesus pay the sacrafice for all then? and why would god sacrafice his own son when he hates it. There are many more arguments out there but those were my reasons. Not mention he didn't do anything he was supposed to have done...

[Chrawnus]

I have no problem answering questions or discussing anything, as far as thining that Jesus is flawed that began about a year ago...when I really began to do my digging. The first thing for me to question was the practice of christians celebrating Christmas and easter. Christians will openly admit Jesus was not born on christmas, or risen on easter. So then I began to think Jehovah's witness had the right idea etc. Further research showed me that those holidays were made to reflect pagan holidays, xmas trees christanity's very own idol that we put up every year and try to say its about jesus. I stopped celebrating holidays like that except when forced to due to family obligations. Further investigation showed that Jesus and horus were extremely similar. to similar....errily similar. coincidence? I was whorshiping a "demi" god...herculces style. Sounds stupid when put that way. Also after reading some interesting articles reflecting that Jewish people have always read the hebrew scriptures first, and then the new testament had to prove its validity through the hebrew bible. Not the other way around which is how christians are taught. Matter of fact we are taught to skip reading the old testment and go straight to the "roman road" When you try to proof the new testament through the hebrew scriptures you realize how invalid they really are. There are two verses in the hebrew scripture that really sold me. There were other things but the two that really did and if you can answer them I would interested to hear your response. 1. God abhorrs human sacrafice especially the sacrafice of the sons. THIS makes no sense when trying to add jesus to the mix. It makes God contradict him self...which well I don't believe. 2. Each man will pay for his own sin according to what he has done. Again? what? how then can jesus pay the sacrafice for all then? and why would god sacrafice his own son when he hates it. There are many more arguments out there but those were my reasons. Not mention he didn't do anything he was supposed to have done...

This post is so full of factually incorrect information that it's hurting my eyes.

[John D. Brey]

I have no problem answering questions or discussing anything, as far as thining that Jesus is flawed that began about a year ago...when I really began to do my digging. The first thing for me to question was the practice of christians celebrating Christmas and easter. Christians will openly admit Jesus was not born on christmas, or risen on easter. So then I began to think Jehovah's witness had the right idea etc. Further research showed me that those holidays were made to reflect pagan holidays, xmas trees christanity's very own idol that we put up every year and try to say its about jesus. I stopped celebrating holidays like that except when forced to due to family obligations. Further investigation showed that Jesus and horus were extremely similar. to similar....errily similar. coincidence? I was whorshiping a "demi" god...herculces style. Sounds stupid when put that way. Also after reading some interesting articles reflecting that Jewish people have always read the hebrew scriptures first, and then the new testament had to prove its validity through the hebrew bible. Not the other way around which is how christians are taught. Matter of fact we are taught to skip reading the old testment and go straight to the "roman road" When you try to proof the new testament through the hebrew scriptures you realize how invalid they really are. There are two verses in the hebrew scripture that really sold me. There were other things but the two that really did and if you can answer them I would interested to hear your response. 1. God abhorrs human sacrafice especially the sacrafice of the sons. THIS makes no sense when trying to add jesus to the mix. It makes God contradict him self...which well I don't believe. 2. Each man will pay for his own sin according to what he has done. Again? what? how then can jesus pay the sacrafice for all then? and why would god sacrafice his own son when he hates it. There are many more arguments out there but those were my reasons. Not mention he didn't do anything he was supposed to have done...

. . . It sounds like you’re asking legitimate questions. Seek and ye shall find. Knock and it will be opened to you.

[John D. Brey]

This post is so full of factually incorrect information that it's hurting my eyes.

Factually speaking, it would be more appropriate to correct, or even merely start to correct, just one of those items of “incorrect information,” than to waste space in cyberspace with unsupported judgments.

[Chrawnus]

Factually speaking, it would be more appropriate to correct, or even merely start to correct, just one of those items of “incorrect information,” than to waste space in cyberspace with unsupported judgments.

There is nothing to respond to, since she hasn't gone into specifics.

[Pilgrim]

Sounds like a case of answering a bad religious understanding with worse to me. Though I fully encourage the asking of questions and exploration of doubt.

[Scrawly]

I have no problem answering questions or discussing anything, as far as thining that Jesus is flawed that began about a year ago...when I really began to do my digging. The first thing for me to question was the practice of christians celebrating Christmas and easter. Christians will openly admit Jesus was not born on christmas, or risen on easter. So then I began to think Jehovah's witness had the right idea etc. Further research showed me that those holidays were made to reflect pagan holidays, xmas trees christanity's very own idol that we put up every year and try to say its about jesus. I stopped celebrating holidays like that except when forced to due to family obligations. Further investigation showed that Jesus and horus were extremely similar. to similar....errily similar. coincidence? I was whorshiping a "demi" god...herculces style. Sounds stupid when put that way. Also after reading some interesting articles reflecting that Jewish people have always read the hebrew scriptures first, and then the new testament had to prove its validity through the hebrew bible. Not the other way around which is how christians are taught. Matter of fact we are taught to skip reading the old testment and go straight to the "roman road" When you try to proof the new testament through the hebrew scriptures you realize how invalid they really are. There are two verses in the hebrew scripture that really sold me. There were other things but the two that really did and if you can answer them I would interested to hear your response. 1. God abhorrs human sacrafice especially the sacrafice of the sons. THIS makes no sense when trying to add jesus to the mix. It makes God contradict him self...which well I don't believe. 2. Each man will pay for his own sin according to what he has done. Again? what? how then can jesus pay the sacrafice for all then? and why would god sacrafice his own son when he hates it. There are many more arguments out there but those were my reasons. Not mention he didn't do anything he was supposed to have done...

Hey Raynin,

Have you ever looked into Messianic Judaism? There is a Jewish OT scholar - Dr. Michael Brown - in particular that I think does tremendous work in proving from the OT that Jesus is the promised Messiah. He answers sophisticated objections raised by fellow Jews against Jesus' messiahship. You can order some of his books on this very issue or perhaps view his YT debates with Rabbi's as well. Some of his books are entitled:

1) Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus: General and Historical Objections Michael L. Brown

2) Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus: Theological Objections Vol. 2 by Michael L. Brown

3) Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus: Messianic Prophecy Objections by Michael L. Brown

I hope you continue to dig even deeper. God bless.

[Soyeong]

Hello and welcome to TWeb.

The first thing for me to question was the practice of christians celebrating Christmas and easter. Christians will openly admit Jesus was not born on christmas, or risen on easter. So then I began to think Jehovah's witness had the right idea etc. Further research showed me that those holidays were made to reflect pagan holidays, xmas trees christanity's very own idol that we put up every year and try to say its about jesus. I stopped celebrating holidays like that except when forced to due to family obligations.

Symbols have no meaning in themselves; they only have meaning insofar as people give them meaning. This means that if a symbol had a different meaning in the past, but nobody in the present is giving that symbol its old meaning, then that old meaning is irrelevant to them. For example, the swastika had a different meaning before the Nazis came along, but now the old meaning is no longer relevant because it has been given new meaning.

When it came to converting pagans, Christians had trouble getting them to give up their holidays, so instead they took the easy route and gave the existing holidays new meaning. Christians are not told to celebrate Christmas and Easter, but at the same time, I see nothing wrong with annually celebrating the birth and resurrection of Jesus, even if the date is wrong. I have chosen not to partake in using the same symbols, but I do not begrudge other Christians who do because those symbols have been given different meaning. I personally prefer to back away from giving gifts to each other during Christmas and focus on giving a gift to Jesus, such as volunteering at a food shelf.

Further investigation showed that Jesus and horus were extremely similar. to similar....errily similar. coincidence? I was whorshiping a "demi" god...herculces style. Sounds stupid when put that way.

There are a number of lists that compare Jesus to various other gods that are floating around, but the main thing they have in common is a lack of scholarship. Most of the similarities are completely made up, contradict actual sources, or are vague enough that they could apply to any number of people. Even if two things happened to be strikingly similar, that is not enough to show that one copied the other. Go here for more information.

Also after reading some interesting articles reflecting that Jewish people have always read the hebrew scriptures first, and then the new testament had to prove its validity through the hebrew bible. Not the other way around which is how christians are taught. Matter of fact we are taught to skip reading the old testment and go straight to the "roman road" When you try to proof the new testament through the hebrew scriptures you realize how invalid they really are.

It is rather unfortunate that some Christians have been taught to ignore the old testament, but it would not be right to say that is how all Christians are taught. The roman road is helpful for understanding salvation, but most Christians understand that the Bible is much deeper than that. Many of the Christians that I have talked to recently have been telling me about how their church has been going back to their Jewish roots. I also suggest that you look into Messianic Judaism. Here is a link to a series on finding the Messiah in the Torah.

1. God abhorrs human sacrafice especially the sacrafice of the sons. THIS makes no sense when trying to add jesus to the mix. It makes God contradict him self...which well I don't believe.

There is quite a bit of difference sacrificing someone else against there will and someone laying down their own life for others.

2. Each man will pay for his own sin according to what he has done. Again? what? how then can jesus pay the sacrafice for all then? and why would god sacrafice his own son when he hates it. There are many more arguments out there but those were my reasons.

While it is true that the Torah teaches personal responsibility for our sins, it also teaches that we need to seek forgiveness through God's provision of a substitute sacrifice than can bear our sins. God provided a substitute sacrifice for Abraham's son, He saved the first born of Israel through the substitute sacrifice of the Passover lamb, and He provided the Lamb of God, to take away the sin of the world.

Not mention he didn't do anything he was supposed to have done...

Such as?

[Rational Gaze]

I have no problem answering questions or discussing anything. As far as thinking that Jesus is flawed, that began about a year ago when I really began to do my digging. The first thing for me to question was the practice of Christians celebrating Christmas and Easter. Christians will openly admit Jesus was not born on Christmas, or risen on Easter. So then I began to think that Jehovah's Witnesses had the right idea, etc.. Further research showed me that those holidays were made to reflect pagan holidays. Christmas trees are Christianity's very own idol that we put up every year and try to say its about Jesus. I stopped celebrating holidays like that except when forced to due to family obligations. Further investigation showed that Jesus and Horus were extremely similar. Too similar... eerily similar. Coincidence? I was worshipping a "demigod"... Hercules style. It sounds stupid when put that way. Also, after reading some interesting articles, I noticed that Jewish people have always read the Hebrew scriptures first, and that the New Testament had to prove its validity through the Hebrew Bible, and not the other way around, which is how Christians are taught. Matter of fact, we are taught to skip reading the Old Testament and go straight to the "Roman road" When you try to prove the New Testament through the Hebrew scriptures you realize how invalid they really are. There are two verses in the Hebrew scripture that really sold me. There were other things but the two that really did and if you can answer them I would interested to hear your response. 1. God abhors human sacrifice especially the sacrifice of the sons. THIS makes no sense when trying to add jesus to the mix. It makes God contradict Himself... which I don't believe. 2. Each man will pay for his own sin according to what he has done. Again, how then can Jesus pay the sacrifice for all, and why would God sacrifice His own Son when He hates it. There are many more arguments out there but those were my reasons. Not to mention He didn't do anything He was supposed to have done...

I took the liberty of correcting your grammar and spelling, considering that the content of your post is indicative of someone who is twelve years old. In fact, judging from your argument, you are probably someone whose idea of "research" consists of Google and Wikipedia. Anybody with an ounce of expertise or familiarity with History and Ancient Religions would be able to tell you that the amount of similarities between Jesus and pagan deities are lower than the ankle-socks of a particularly small beetle, standing in a ditch, in a quarry, in the low country. Websites that claim otherwise are simply fabricating misinformation to win over the weak minded and the gullible. I do apologise if I sound "mean" or "condescending" but it really doesn't sound like you have put much thought or effort into your search.

Now, if you have specific questions we will be happy to answer them. For instance, your question regarding how God could condemn Jesus to the cross if He abhors human sacrifice. This is one that is easily answered. First of all, Jesus wasn't merely a man. He was the incarnate Word of God, and thus the second person of the Trinity. So, God was condemning His incarnate self to die. Secondly, God abhors human sacrifice. Since Jesus was God incarnate, I really don't think that counts as human sacrifice. Thirdly, God, as the master and creator of the universe, and as the Lord and giver of life, God can choose to whom He gives or takes away life.

As for your charge that Christians are taught to forsake the Old Testament... what church HAVE you been going to? I know of no church or congregation that teaches that. In fact, I don't know of any cults, or heterodox sects that teach this off the top of my head. That the New Testament is to be understood in light of the Old Testament is a pretty basic fact that most Christians should already know and be aware of. Of course, not every Christian is aware of the original contexts of either OT or NT culture, and so said fact often makes little to no difference upon the exegesis and theology of many. Also, what did you mean when you said: "Not [to] mention he didn't do anything he was supposed to have done..."

For good articles that may or may not answer your questions, then I recommend Tektonics.org:
http://www.tektonics.org/

I can say for sure, however, that the articles Tekton has on Jesus and Horus will shatter the belief that Jesus and Horus are twins, and the same for other pagan deities too. There is just zero basis for such a backwards, ahistorical hypothesis.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Shalom Raynin

I agree with the others, that you sound uncertain with your beliefs. It is definitely too soon for you to be making life altering choices. For one thing, altering one's religion causes high anxiety with one's family. You shouldn't initiate that stress without a strong foundation of knowledge and belief. Carry on with your research. I'd say that converting to Judaism is premature at this point, if not totally unnecessary. Be aware that you don't need to be Jewish to get to Heaven. All humans, no matter their religion, will get to Heaven eventually.

[raynin]

ahh well some of those comments were mean and hateful . I don't send all day on the internet and comb through what I type to make others like me more or value my opinions more. Well I actually have college degree christian studies I am very aware of various stand points and beliefs. Was just posting here becuase I thought there would be people of the jewish faith to discuss things not argue why I have changed my beliefs on jesus lol or how my typing relates to my ability to research. Think before you are mean to others then try and share about why your belief in jesus is correct. All the helpful comments were definetly appreciated. Thank you.

[Rational Gaze]

ahh well some of those comments were mean

So was Jesus.

and hateful

I can only speak for myself, but I can say that this is not true. Being mean does not automatically equate with being hateful. For example, ever heard of tough love?

try and share about why your belief in jesus is correct.

I have to dash right now, but I'll be back, where I shall acquiesce to the above request. In the meantime, you still haven't explained what you meant when you said that Jesus did not do what He was supposed to have done, if He were the Messiah. I assume you mean that He did not fulfil the Messianic prophecies contained in the Hebrew Bible, but I would prefer if you clarified, rather than myself having to make assumptions. That way, we can hopefully have a fruitful discussion.

In Christ, RG.