What has the Father done in LDS theology

[Sparko]

I asked this in another thread. OC just called it a "clown question" because he couldn't answer it.

In Christian theology God is a triune being. But in LDS theology, they are three separate beings who just form some sort of Triumvirate council.

Now the bible tells us that Jesus, as the Word, created everything. He created the universe and everything and everyone in it. In addition he created heaven and everything and everyone in it.
Nothing was created without him, and he holds all things together. Without him, we would cease to exist. He is also the savior and will be the judge.

In Christian theology that is not a problem since the Father and the Holy Spirit and the Son are all one being (revealed as three distinct persons)

However in LDS theology, since they are three separate beings, that basically means Jesus has done everything (from being creator, to being Jehovah God, to being the savior, the judge and all that) which kind of leaves the Father out of it all. The Father seems to have just birthed our spirit bodies (through his wife or wives) and speaks from clouds once in a while in the NT. Other than that, he hasn't done anything!

So he was basically made into a God by his former God, and then he never even did anything but create spirit babies, then chose his oldest son, Jesus to do everything else! Sounds like he retired before he even got started!

[nrajeff]

I asked this in another thread. OC just called it a "clown question" because he couldn't answer it.

Provide the quote where he stated that as the reason he called it a clown question.
If you can.

In Christian theology God is a triune being.

In modern-day, normative Christian theology, yes. Try not to be so fallaciously sweeping and generalization-prone.

But in LDS theology, they are three separate beings who just form some sort of Triumvirate council.

"Just" ? OK, your need to load it with pejorative rhetoric is noted.

Now the bible tells us that Jesus, as the Word, created everything.

As far as THINGS go, you are probably correct, within the text's intended context.

He created the universe and everything and everyone in it.

The Bible does not say that. You are pouring your ideas into what it actually says.

In addition he created heaven and everything and everyone in it.

You're saying that the dwelling place of "Our Father who art in Heaven" did not exist before the Person of the Son created it? Are you sure?

Nothing was created without him, and he holds all things together. Without him, we would cease to exist.

More eisegesis from you. It is NOT the Son who is called the FATHER of spirits. The Bible does not say that your spirit would cease to EXIST without the Son. What the Bible DOES say is that without the Son, you wouldn't be saved.

He is also the savior and will be the judge.

You got that part right.

In Christian theology that is not a problem since the Father and the Holy Spirit and the Son are all one being (revealed as three distinct persons)

The way you have described the actions of the Person of the SON, DOES create a problem for Trinitarianism, IMO. You just finished describing what ONE of the Persons has done. Now you're equivocating it into "Well, THREE PERSONS comprising one BEING did all those things." It's inconsistent and irrational.

However in LDS theology, since they are three separate beings, that basically means Jesus has done everything (from being creator, to being Jehovah God, to being the savior, the judge and all that)

Wrong again. LDS doctrine holds that Jesus created THINGS, such as worlds, but not PEOPLE such as our spirits. That job has been His Father's job, among other things.

which kind of leaves the Father out of it all.

False for reason just stated.

The Father seems to have just birthed our spirit bodies (through his wife or wives) and speaks from clouds once in a while in the NT. Other than that, he hasn't done anything!

More false statements from you. See above for refutation.

So he was basically made into a God by his former God, and then he never even did anything but create spirit babies, then chose his oldest son, Jesus to do everything else!

Again, FALSE, as explained above.

Sounds like he retired before he even got started!

Besides your problem of your mockery of LDS beliefs, it sounds like you decided to mock them first, and then worry about learning what they really ARE later, if at all.

“Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counterattack ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, who then react to your advantage.” - Saul Alinsky, Rules for Radicals.

[Sparko]

your non-response is noted and expected Jeff. Now go away or answer the questions.

as far as creating heaven:

Wrong again. LDS doctrine holds that Jesus created THINGS, such as worlds, but not PEOPLE such as our spirits. That job has been His Father's job, among other things.

Really? Who made Adam?

Who was being referred to in this verse?

Psalm 149:2
Let Israel rejoice in their Maker; let the people of Zion be glad in their King.

Jehovah!

and here?

Isaiah 51:13
that you forget the LORD your Maker, who stretches out the heavens and who lays the foundations of the earth, that you live in constant terror every day because of the wrath of the oppressor, who is bent on destruction? For where is the wrath of the oppressor?



Genesis 14:22
But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “With raised hand I have sworn an oath to the LORD, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth,

Psalm 115:15
May you be blessed by the LORD, the Maker of heaven and earth.

as far as creating the universe, just read Gen 1. where he creates light, the stars, the earth, the moon, etc. Sounds like the universe to me.

[Kabane52]

Hi Jeff, I would say that traditional Christian Trinitarianism avoids the problem because the Son and the Spirit are the two arms of God the Father. We rarely ever read of the Father doing anything directly. When He creates, He creates through His Word, and when He applies the work of the Incarnate Word to man, He does it by His Spirit. Everything is a work of God the Father, a work of the Father through His Word and Spirit.

[nrajeff]

your non-response is noted and expected Jeff. Now go away or answer the questions.

I answered your fallacious, loaded, stupid questions as reasonably as, or even more reasonably than, most people would be able to.

P.S. -- You should do a little more study of what the Hebrew words that are translated heaven can refer to.

[Cerebrum123]

I answered your fallacious, loaded, stupid questions as reasonably as, or even more reasonably than, most people would be able to.

P.S. -- You should do a little more study of what the Hebrew words that are translated heaven can refer to.

Do you know what it means in Hebrew when they refer to heaven and earth at the same time like that? It's called a merism, you have two different words that when combined together offer a picture of a whole, in this case you get the UNIVERSE. So, you have Jesus alone creating ALL of the universe, and you have God the Father(in LDS anyway) just sitting back with the "eternal wives" making "spirit children". So, it would be good if you could actually answer the question on this one.

[Kabane52]

I don't think you're giving this objection due credit, Jeff. I respect you and a lot of your work, but I think this question does deserve fuller consideration. In Orthodox Trinitarian theology, the Word comes from the Father. Note here that this isn't modalistic (you seem to conflate Trinitarian theology with modalism on your webpage, an error that seems frequent in LDS circles.) When I speak, my words are not me, yet they come from me. In ancient Hebraic thought, a word was something which had concrete existence even before it was spoken. The Word of the Father is eternal and exists with the Father. It finds its origin in the Father and is eternally dependent on the Father. This is why we call the Word "consubstantial" with the Father. The same is true of the Holy Spirit, the "Breath" of the Father. God, through His Word and Breath, creates the heavens and the earth.

(Genesis 1:1-3) In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

If you make a distinction, not only in Person but in Being, between the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, then you cannot ultimately trace all things back to the power of the Father. This is a real problem for LDS theology that needs to be addressed.

[nrajeff]

Hi Jeff,

Hi !

I would say that traditional Christian Trinitarianism avoids the problem because the Son and the Spirit are the two arms of God the Father.

I am not sure that resolves all the problems, though, since it could be perceived as being modalistic.

We rarely ever read of the Father doing anything directly. When He creates, He creates through His Word, and when He applies the work of the Incarnate Word to man, He does it by His Spirit. Everything is a work of God the Father, a work of the Father through His Word and Spirit.

I agree that there are definitely examples of God accomplishing something through His Son or through the HS, but I think there are also definite references to the Father doing things Himself. We could search through the NT and find more than a few examples, IMO.

[nrajeff]

I don't think you're giving this objection due credit, Jeff. I respect you and a lot of your work,

??? My "work"? Not sure what you are referring to. Don't get me wrong--any respect you think I deserve is welcome and I am grateful for it, as long as it's really my work we're talking about.

but I think this question does deserve fuller consideration. In Orthodox Trinitarian theology, the Word comes from the Father.

LDS agree that Jesus was begotten by His Father--thus He came or proceeded from the Person of the Father.

Note here that this isn't modalistic (you seem to conflate Trinitarian theology with modalism on your webpage,

I have a webpage? Again, not sure what you are referring to. Have you confused me with someone else? Or are you referring to a website that I linked to in a post?

When I speak, my words are not me, yet they come from me. In ancient Hebraic thought, a word was something which had concrete existence even before it was spoken.

Yes, I am a little familiar with that, the idea of "Logos" in Hellenism and its infusion or adaptation into Judeo- Christianity, and the "Wisdom" concept.

The Word of the Father is eternal and exists with the Father. It finds its origin in the Father and is eternally dependent on the Father. This is why we call the Word "consubstantial" with the Father. The same is true of the Holy Spirit, the "Breath" of the Father. God, through His Word and Breath, creates the heavens and the earth.

At the same time, it seems undeniable that the PERSON of the Son has a physical, corporeal, resurrected body, and if we try to say that the WHOLE person of the Son is consubstantial with the Person of the Father (because they are allegedly ontologically literally one being), then it creates a big conundrum, IMO.

(BTW, there has been at least one "debate" here in TWEB on the accuracy of Trinitarianism as the best explanation of who and what the 3 Persons are. You might find that some of the ground you want to cover has already been covered there.)

If you make a distinction, not only in Person but in Being, between the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, then you cannot ultimately trace all things back to the power of the Father.

That is an interesting assertion. Can you explain how you arrived at that conclusion?

[Kabane52]

Will respond to the rest in a bit- yes, I have indeed confused you with Jeff Lindsay. You guys say some of the same things, but nevertheless, I do enjoy reading your posts here on TWeb.

[onefour1]

In LDS thought, It is believed that intelligence and element are eternal. Creation is the organization of those things that already exist into something else. For example, if one were to create a ship, he would not make it out of nothing but go out and get materials to create the ship. In the same way, God created our spirits and our physical bodies from the intelligences and matter that already existed in eternity. In LDS thought, God the Father is the father of our spirits. Jesus Christ had nothing to do with the creation of spirits. However, as the firstborn of the spirits of the Father, Jesus was to become a Savior. I imagine that this great calling was the greatest responsibility a son of the Father could have. The father taught his firstborn son how to create and be a God with him before the foundation of this earth. It was through the direction of the Father that Christ did anything. And when man was placed on this earth we read:

Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

In verse 26 we read of the Father saying to the Son, "Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness...". So apparently the father was involved in the creation even though the Son was obedient in honouring his father's will and command. Paul, to the Ephesians gave God the Father credit even though he did it all through his Son:

Ephesians 3:9
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Does it lessen the Father to give knowledge and greatness to his Son? I think not. He is the greatest of all Fathers to us. We do not see it as a problem as you have stated. In fact I don't see how it is a problem at all. God loved his son and was successful in raising him up to be the Savior of us all. Without the Father, there would be no Son. But the Father loved his Son and shared all his glory with him. They are one. And as John 17 teaches, we too can be one even as they are one. The Father has given all that he has to the Son. And we too can be joint heirs with our Christ and have all that the Father has. God loves us as he has loved his firstborn son. For this reason he taught his Son to have the same love as he has. He is also teaching us to have this same love. So the Father had his Son suffer so greatly that it caused the Son to bleed from every pour of his body. This of a certainty was hard on the Father. But the love of them both brought it all to pass. And when the Son was about to suffer for all the sins of the world, he plead to his Father in heaven that this cup would be taken from him. But he loved the Father so much, that he resolved that "not my will, but thy will be done" and he suffered for all the sins of the world. The Son brought his will in alignment with that of the Fathers and partook of the bitter cup. In this we see two personalities. The Son not wanting to suffer but willing to do so because it was the will of the Father whom he loved with a perfect love. The Father wanting the son to partake to save as many of his other children whom he also loved. To help Abraham understand the suffering of the Father in what occurred, he was asked to sacrifice his son Isaac. Abraham loved God with all his heart. But he also loved his son Isaac. It must have been tearing him apart inside, but his love for the Father also brought him to the point of nearly stabbing his son on the alter. But God prevented this from occurring and only used this as a lesson to Abraham. Abraham himself was almost sacrificed on the alter in his life and so it was a very hard thing for him to have to sacrifice his only Son from Sarah whom he loved and cherished.

The Father is fully aware of all that happens to his children. He is involved in our lives and this is why we pray to the Father in our prayers. We are his children. He loves us. He is not sitting back and doing nothing. He has directed all the good that has occurred to us in this life and continues to be a huge part in our lives today. Jesus only did those things that he saw the Father do. Jesus was a revelation to us of the Father. Even Jesus tells us that the Father was greater than himself. So, No, I do not have a problem as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with the roll of the Father and him being a separate and distinct person than the Son.

[Sparko]

In LDS thought, It is believed that intelligence and element are eternal. Creation is the organization of those things that already exist into something else. For example, if one were to create a ship, he would not make it out of nothing but go out and get materials to create the ship. In the same way, God created our spirits and our physical bodies from the intelligences and matter that already existed in eternity. In LDS thought, God the Father is the father of our spirits. Jesus Christ had nothing to do with the creation of spirits. However, as the firstborn of the spirits of the Father, Jesus was to become a Savior. I imagine that this great calling was the greatest responsibility a son of the Father could have. The father taught his firstborn son how to create and be a God with him before the foundation of this earth. It was through the direction of the Father that Christ did anything. And when man was placed on this earth we read:

Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

In verse 26 we read of the Father saying to the Son, "Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness...". So apparently the father was involved in the creation even though the Son was obedient in honouring his father's will and command. Paul, to the Ephesians gave God the Father credit even though he did it all through his Son:

Ephesians 3:9
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Does it lessen the Father to give knowledge and greatness to his Son? I think not. He is the greatest of all Fathers to us. We do not see it as a problem as you have stated. In fact I don't see how it is a problem at all. God loved his son and was successful in raising him up to be the Savior of us all. Without the Father, there would be no Son. But the Father loved his Son and shared all his glory with him. They are one. And as John 17 teaches, we too can be one even as they are one. The Father has given all that he has to the Son. And we too can be joint heirs with our Christ and have all that the Father has. God loves us as he has loved his firstborn son. For this reason he taught his Son to have the same love as he has. He is also teaching us to have this same love. So the Father had his Son suffer so greatly that it caused the Son to bleed from every pour of his body. This of a certainty was hard on the Father. But the love of them both brought it all to pass. And when the Son was about to suffer for all the sins of the world, he plead to his Father in heaven that this cup would be taken from him. But he loved the Father so much, that he resolved that "not my will, but thy will be done" and he suffered for all the sins of the world. The Son brought his will in alignment with that of the Fathers and partook of the bitter cup. In this we see two personalities. The Son not wanting to suffer but willing to do so because it was the will of the Father whom he loved with a perfect love. The Father wanting the son to partake to save as many of his other children whom he also loved. To help Abraham understand the suffering of the Father in what occurred, he was asked to sacrifice his son Isaac. Abraham loved God with all his heart. But he also loved his son Isaac. It must have been tearing him apart inside, but his love for the Father also brought him to the point of nearly stabbing his son on the alter. But God prevented this from occurring and only used this as a lesson to Abraham. Abraham himself was almost sacrificed on the alter in his life and so it was a very hard thing for him to have to sacrifice his only Son from Sarah whom he loved and cherished.

The Father is fully aware of all that happens to his children. He is involved in our lives and this is why we pray to the Father in our prayers. We are his children. He loves us. He is not sitting back and doing nothing. He has directed all the good that has occurred to us in this life and continues to be a huge part in our lives today. Jesus only did those things that he saw the Father do. Jesus was a revelation to us of the Father. Even Jesus tells us that the Father was greater than himself. So, No, I do not have a problem as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with the roll of the Father and him being a separate and distinct person than the Son.

Thanks onefour1!

But you do need to know that the "we" and "our" used in Genesis was not actually speaking in the plural, but it was a grammatical necessity because Elohim is a plural word. So it is not really talking about more than one God.

As far as creating together, that only works if they are the same being. Because if you read Col 1...

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

It says that the Son created everything right?

and in Isaiah, Jehovah (the Son) says he did it all alone:

Isaiah 44:6 6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
...24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

So if the Son and the Father are two different beings, then Jehovah is a liar or he created everything himself, and the Father didn't do anything.

[sylvius]

Thanks onefour1!

But you do need to know that the "we" and "our" used in Genesis was not actually speaking in the plural, but it was a grammatical necessity because Elohim is a plural word. So it is not really talking about more than one God.

.

Hey professor, how do you explain then Genesis 1:29?

And God said, "Behold, I have given you every seed bearing herb, which is upon the surface of the entire earth, and every tree that has seed bearing fruit; it will be yours for food.

[Sparko]

Hey professor, how do you explain then Genesis 1:29?

And God said, "Behold, I have given you every seed bearing herb, which is upon the surface of the entire earth, and every tree that has seed bearing fruit; it will be yours for food.

grammar again. Elohim is a majestic plural noun. The context, subject, and adjectives determine whether the pronouns used to refer to Elohim are singular or plural.

PS - since when are you arguing for there being more than one God, Sylvius?

[sylvius]

grammar again. Elohim is a majestic plural noun. The context, subject, and adjectives determine whether the pronouns used to refer to Elohim are singular or plural.

PS - since when are you arguing for there being more than one God, Sylvius?

Did I do so?

PS, professor, you dind't answer the question.

why doesn't Genesis 1:29 read:
And God said, "Behold, we have given you every seed bearing herb, which is upon the surface of the entire earth, and every tree that has seed bearing fruit; it will be yours for food. .

if your teaching about "let us make man" being a grammatical necessity was true?

And what about Genesis 11:6-7?
And the Lord said, "Lo! [they are] one people, and they all have one language, and this is what they have commenced to do. Now, will it not be withheld from them, all that they have planned to do? Come, let us descend and confuse their language, so that one will not understand the language of his companion."