What has the Father done in LDS theology

[Sparko]

Did I do so?

PS, professor, you dind't answer the question.

why doesn't Genesis 1:29 read:
And God said, "Behold, we have given you every seed bearing herb, which is upon the surface of the entire earth, and every tree that has seed bearing fruit; it will be yours for food. .

if your teaching about "let us make man" being a grammatical necessity was true?

And what about Genesis 11:6-7?
And the Lord said, "Lo! [they are] one people, and they all have one language, and this is what they have commenced to do. Now, will it not be withheld from them, all that they have planned to do? Come, let us descend and confuse their language, so that one will not understand the language of his companion."

I did answer you.

What's YOUR answer? Edumacate us.

[sylvius]

I did answer you.

What's YOUR answer? Edumacate us.

I do agree with you that the father and the son are one (God).

So where it says: "Let us make man", it is not about the father who speaks to the son.

The son wasn't created yet.

To be resurrected he had to die first.

As resurrected one he was God.

God is the resurrected one.

He gave his life for the sake of man.

[Sparko]

I do agree with you that the father and the son are one (God).

So where it says: "Let us make man", it is not about the father who speaks to the son.

I agree. it was because of hebrew grammar rules. A "royal we" type of thing.

The son wasn't created yet.

To be resurrected he had to die first.

As resurrected one he was God.

God is the resurrected one.

He gave his life for the sake of man.

The rest we disagree on. the Son has always existed. but that is for another thread.

[sylvius]

I agree. it was because of hebrew grammar rules. A "royal we" type of thing.

Hebrew grammar doens't know a "royal we".

There is another reason behind it.

the Son has always existed.

But had to be created first.

but that is for another thread.

ok

[Sparko]

Hebrew grammar doens't know a "royal we".

http://www.israelofgod.org/elohim1.htm

[sylvius]

http://www.israelofgod.org/elohim1.htm

It says nothing about "royal we" and what it calls "majestic plural" 1) is an own invention and 2) has nothing to do with "royal we" (pluralis majestatis).

Lettinga calls "Elohim" with singular meaning "pluralis intensivus".

[onefour1]

Thanks onefour1!

But you do need to know that the "we" and "our" used in Genesis was not actually speaking in the plural, but it was a grammatical necessity because Elohim is a plural word. So it is not really talking about more than one God.

As far as creating together, that only works if they are the same being. Because if you read Col 1...

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

It says that the Son created everything right?

and in Isaiah, Jehovah (the Son) says he did it all alone:

Isaiah 44:6 6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
...24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

So if the Son and the Father are two different beings, then Jehovah is a liar or he created everything himself, and the Father didn't do anything.

I as a father can go and teach my son how to throw a curve ball. So he goes out and practices it and in the game he strikes out the final batter to win the game with his curve. He then comes and tells me, "Dad! I did it. I threw a curve ball all by myself!". As a father, even though I taught him how throw the ball, he threw the curve all by himself. In like manner, I believe the Father has taught the Lord Jesus how to do all that he has done. Not only did he teach him, but he directed him to do the things he has done. Jesus has gone forth and created all these things. Did he do it by himself. Yes, you can say that he did it by himself after being instructed and directed by the Father to do them. Thus I again quote the verse in Ephesians

Ephesians 3:9
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Here we read that the Father created all things! How did he create them? By his Son Jesus Christ.

The Father of our spirits is very involved in our lives and all that happens within his vast kingdom. We know that Jesus was the creator of all things but this does not mean that he did not have instruction and direction to do so. The Father has made Jesus who he is. He is Jesus' Father.

[Cerebrum123]

I as a father can go and teach my son how to throw a curve ball. So he goes out and practices it and in the game he strikes out the final batter to win the game with his curve. He then comes and tells me, "Dad! I did it. I threw a curve ball all by myself!". As a father, even though I taught him how throw the ball, he threw the curve all by himself. In like manner, I believe the Father has taught the Lord Jesus how to do all that he has done. Not only did he teach him, but he directed him to do the things he has done. Jesus has gone forth and created all these things. Did he do it by himself. Yes, you can say that he did it by himself after being instructed and directed by the Father to do them. Thus I again quote the verse in Ephesians

Ephesians 3:9
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Here we read that the Father created all things! How did he create them? By his Son Jesus Christ.

The Father of our spirits is very involved in our lives and all that happens within his vast kingdom. We know that Jesus was the creator of all things but this does not mean that he did not have instruction and direction to do so. The Father has made Jesus who he is. He is Jesus' Father.

You do realize that if we follow your logic to it's conclusion that we still have God the Father not involved in the creation of the universe, or the people that live on Earth, right? Which would STILL be a big problem for LDS, since they believe in all those other gods that created their own planets to rule them(nothing left to be created for them since Jesus would have done ALL of it, even factoring in your "teaching hypothesis").

[Sparko]

I as a father can go and teach my son how to throw a curve ball. So he goes out and practices it and in the game he strikes out the final batter to win the game with his curve. He then comes and tells me, "Dad! I did it. I threw a curve ball all by myself!". As a father, even though I taught him how throw the ball, he threw the curve all by himself. In like manner, I believe the Father has taught the Lord Jesus how to do all that he has done. Not only did he teach him, but he directed him to do the things he has done. Jesus has gone forth and created all these things. Did he do it by himself. Yes, you can say that he did it by himself after being instructed and directed by the Father to do them. Thus I again quote the verse in Ephesians

Ephesians 3:9
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Here we read that the Father created all things! How did he create them? By his Son Jesus Christ.

The Father of our spirits is very involved in our lives and all that happens within his vast kingdom. We know that Jesus was the creator of all things but this does not mean that he did not have instruction and direction to do so. The Father has made Jesus who he is. He is Jesus' Father.

You are forgetting that Jehovah said that there are no Gods besides himself. And none before and none after.

[Cow Poke]

You are forgetting that Jehovah said that there are no Gods besides himself. And none before and none after.

And the fact that, in its infancy, the Mormon Church was much more Trinitarian than it is now.

[onefour1]

You do realize that if we follow your logic to it's conclusion that we still have God the Father not involved in the creation of the universe, or the people that live on Earth, right? Which would STILL be a big problem for LDS, since they believe in all those other gods that created their own planets to rule them(nothing left to be created for them since Jesus would have done ALL of it, even factoring in your "teaching hypothesis").

Only if you consider directing and teaching the Lord what he knows and does as being uninvolved. Regarding Other kingdoms, you are taking the phrase, "ALL THINGS" way to literally. If Jesus created all things literally, then he would have created God the Father as well as himself. Already you need to make exceptions. But if you search the bible, you will see that the term "all things" is often not taken as literal as you would like it to be.

[onefour1]

You are forgetting that Jehovah said that there are no Gods besides himself. And none before and none after.

LDS believe that the verses you refer to are in reference to us on this earth and not to be applied to all eternity.

[Sparko]

LDS believe that the verses you refer to are in reference to us on this earth and not to be applied to all eternity.

He was very clear about saying there were no other Gods and that he created everything ALONE. That means he was lying if the LDS is correct. Or at the very least, misleading the Israelites with deceptive wording.

[Cow Poke]

Only if you consider directing and teaching the Lord what he knows and does as being uninvolved. Regarding Other kingdoms, you are taking the phrase, "ALL THINGS" way to literally.

Again, you are taking an English translation of the original language without regard to context.

If Jesus created all things literally, then he would have created God the Father as well as himself.

I don't think ANYBODY with half a brain would conclude that a CREATOR who created "all things" should be interpreted to mean that He created Himself, since we assert He always existed.

Already you need to make exceptions. But if you search the bible, you will see that the term "all things" is often not taken as literal as you would like it to be.

Again, searching for the English phrase "all things" is NOT the same as actual biblical study, looking at the original language in CONTEXT, and comparing usages that way, 141.

[Sparko]

Again, you are taking an English translation of the original language without regard to context.



I don't think ANYBODY with half a brain would conclude that a CREATOR who created "all things" should be interpreted to mean that He created Himself, since we assert He always existed.



Again, searching for the English phrase "all things" is NOT the same as actual biblical study, looking at the original language in CONTEXT, and comparing usages that way, 141.

And John 1 says:

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

which clearly says it only includes the things that HAVE been made, and God was never made.