The Atonement

[nrajeff]

They don't pretend to be for really prophets, Jeff.

What DO they pretend to be?

[RBerman]

Was that the standard for determining Mormon doctrine in Brigham's day?

Yes.

That seems at odds with other Brigham quotes we've seen on this forum recently, in which he declared that his words were law. Do you deny that he said such things, or do you admit that he said them but was mistaken about the level of authority with which his followers invested him in his day?

If you are right, then you may have located the one person on the planet who understands it with no difficulty.

There's no problem at all comprehending what Brigham is saying within the context of that quotation. He's saying that Adam is God, and that Eve is one of God's spirit wives. Easy-peasy. Now, I'll grant that there's no good way to reconcile that with the Bible, which teaches that Adam is a creation of God. OtherCheek would be on much firmer footing to say, "Yeah, that quote is easy to understand. Brigham said some crazy stuff when he got revved up, and the people just had to roll their eyes and pretend to listen sometimes." But to act as if the quote itself is somehow difficult to parse? That I don't buy.

If the LDS are abandoning beliefs that you feel to be clearly unbiblical, that should be a cause for rejoicing on your part....right?

Very much so. Growing consistency in Biblical fidelity would be most welcome. It may well be that Mormons a hundred years hence will have summoned the courage to admit that Joseph made the whole thing up.

[Sparko]

Obviously, Brigham was wrong. A classic story in the Church on this point is that he gave a fiery speech on a certain subject; then he came back in the afternoon and said “this morning you heard what Brigham Young thinks of about this subject, and now I would like to tell what the Lord thinks about it.” (Sustaining and Defending the Faith, Millet and McConkie, pg.54)

Brigham himself said the following:

“In trying all matters of doctrine, to make a decision valid, it is necessary to obtain a unanimous voice, faith, and decision. In the capacity of a Quorum, the three First Presidents must be one in their voice the Twelve Apostles must be unanimous in their voice, to obtain a righteous decision upon any matter that may come before them, as you may read in the Doctrine and Covenants. . . . Whenever you see these Quorums unanimous in their declaration, you may set it down as true” (Journal of Discourses 9:91-92)

Context OC!!!!

He is specifically talking about TRYING someone in following doctrines. TRYING as in a COURT. The whole previous section is about what is to be done if someone breaks the moral law and how the 12 have to handle such cases and be unanimous. NOTHING about making doctrine at all!

Here is a link to the whole thing:
http://jod.mrm.org/9/86#91

[Cow Poke]

What DO they pretend to be?

They don't. It's YOUR guys who want to have their cake and eat it too, being "prophets", yet being totally unaccountable for staying stupid stuff for which you later have to throw them under the bus.

[nrajeff]

There's no problem at all comprehending what Brigham is saying within the context of that quotation. He's saying that Adam is God, and that Eve is one of God's spirit wives. Easy-peasy.

NOT easy, nor peasy. Because he didn't make it clear in what way Adam is God--not in a way that everyone would understand and agree on. For example, the vast majority of LDS interpret "Adam is our father and our god" to mean NOT "Our Father in Heaven, the Father to whom Jesus, the SON of God prayed" but rather it means "god" in the sense of "supreme patriarch of the human race" since he was the progenitor of all of us and was the first of the dispensational prophets and his destiny is theosis or deification, something all his descendants have a potential for too. The Lord told Moses that he would be "as God" to Israel. In a way, Adam could be considered similarly, in LDS doctrine .

Yet you probably disagree with that interpretation, which means that apparently BY didn't make it clear enough.

[Sparko]

NOT easy, nor peasy. Because he didn't make it clear in what way Adam is God--not in a way that everyone would understand and agree on. For example, the vast majority of LDS interpret "Adam is our father and our god" to mean NOT "Our Father in Heaven, the Father to whom Jesus, the SON of God prayed" but rather it means "god" in the sense of "supreme patriarch of the human race" since he was the progenitor of all of us and was the first of the dispensational prophets and his destiny is theosis or deification, something all his descendants have a potential for too. The Lord told Moses that he would be "as God" to Israel. In a way, Adam could be considered similarly, in LDS doctrine .

Yet you probably disagree with that interpretation, which means that apparently BY didn't make it clear enough.

It is really clear Jeff. Young plainly says that Adam is our Father and our God, who had a celestial body, and was the father of Jesus. Who else would that be but heavenly Father? Hmmm?

JOD vol1. p.50

Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken—He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, the thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed. When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal. When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family;

© source where applicable

[OtherCheek]

Context OC!!!!

He is specifically talking about TRYING someone in following doctrines. TRYING as in a COURT. The whole previous section is about what is to be done if someone breaks the moral law and how the 12 have to handle such cases and be unanimous. NOTHING about making doctrine at all!

Here is a link to the whole thing:
http://jod.mrm.org/9/86#91

Your "exclusive context" is of that quote is very debatable. The quote is in its own paragraph. Also, the quorum of the 12 apostles do not "try" people. That is left to the Stake Presidency and the 12 high counselors of each stake. Either way, the principle of unanimity applies in matters of establishing doctrine as well as in trying / judging offenders.

[OtherCheek]

It is really clear Jeff. Young plainly says that Adam is our Father and our God, who had a celestial body, and was the father of Jesus. Who else would that be but heavenly Father? Hmmm?

JOD vol1. p.50

Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken—He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, the thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed. When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal. When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family;

© source where applicable

Regardless, this Adam-God stuff never was Church Doctrine.

[Cow Poke]

Regardless, this Adam-God stuff never was Church Doctrine.

So, Brigham was just kind of a nut, at times, eh?

[Cerebrum123]

If you are right, then you may have located the one person on the planet who understands it with no difficulty.



If the LDS are abandoning beliefs that you feel to be clearly unbiblical, that should be a cause for rejoicing on your part....right?

Won't be able to truly rejoice until they reject ALL of the false doctrine of Joseph Smith, and other "prophets" of Mormonism.

[nrajeff]

They don't.

Of COURSE they don't seem to be pretenders to YOU--you're one of their cult members!

It's YOUR guys who want to have their cake and eat it too, being "prophets", yet being totally unaccountable for staying stupid stuff for which you later have to throw them under the bus.

You mean we want them to be inspired on occasion, yet still fallible human beings with their own opinions and speculations that may or may not be correct?

[Cerebrum123]

Can you site any examples of LDS scripture supporting the idea that Adam and Heavenly Father are one and the same person? Or is this just something you are making up because it fits you narrative?

I DO have an example, and I started a thread on the very same subject. All I got was a bunch of handwaving and bad excuses. Just so you can find it here is the link.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...-was-Right!-!-!!

[nrajeff]

It is really clear Jeff.

Nope. Not in the context of other statements BY said about Jesus and His Father in Heaven--statements that contradict any inference that he was referring to Adam.

Young plainly says that Adam is our Father and our God, who had a celestial body, and was the father of Jesus. Who else would that be but heavenly Father? Hmmm?

It would be Adam, who (BY speculates) came to Earth with an immortal body--which is not so crazy, since Genesis says that Adam DID have start out his life on Earth with an immortal body--and Adam IS the father of Jesus in the same sense that Adam is the father of the human race.

Other statements by BY indicate that he did NOT believe that the deity who is mentioned in the Gospels as being the literal father of Christ was Adam. BY taught that Adam was, in the council of heaven before Earth was created, one of the CHILDREN of God the Father who HELPED Him and Christ do some of the planning and creating.

That means that BY did NOT teach that Adam and the Father in Heaven, the Father of SPIRITS, to whom Jesus prayed as the NT states, are the same being. It's an impossibility.

But what do I know? I am only a lifelong LDS who started studying the Adam-God theory in the late 1980s.

[Cerebrum123]

Nope. Not in the context of other statements BY said about Jesus and His Father in Heaven--statements that contradict any inference that he was referring to Adam.


It would be Adam, who (BY speculates) came to Earth with an immortal body--which is not so crazy, since Genesis says that Adam DID have start out his life on Earth with an immortal body--and Adam IS the father of Jesus in the same sense that Adam is the father of the human race.

Other statements by BY indicate that he did NOT believe that the deity who is mentioned in the Gospels as being the literal father of Christ was Adam. BY taught that Adam was, in the council of heaven before Earth was created, one of the CHILDREN of God the Father who HELPED Him and Christ do some of the planning and creating.

That means that BY did NOT teach that Adam and the Father in Heaven, the Father of SPIRITS, to whom Jesus prayed as the NT states, are the same being. It's an impossibility.

But what do I know? I am only a lifelong LDS who started studying the Adam-God theory in the late 1980s.

Yeah, but you can only make these denials by ignoring both the Bible and LDS doctrine when they refer to the "ancient of days" which is a title reserved only for God, and that the D&C(I believe it was the D&C anyway, but it might have been a different LDS book), and B.Y. BOTH use that title for Adam. This is something that you CAN'T deny. Also B.Y clearly says that God the Father was the father of humanity, and thus Adam.

And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family;

[Cow Poke]

Of COURSE they don't seem to be pretenders to YOU--you're one of their cult members!

You're such a girl.