The Atonement

[Cow Poke]

Other statements by BY indicate that he did NOT believe that the deity who is mentioned in the Gospels as being the literal father of Christ was Adam. BY taught that Adam was, in the council of heaven before Earth was created, one of the CHILDREN of God the Father who HELPED Him and Christ do some of the planning and creating.

Because Young was a wishy washy wanna-be prophet who couldn't make up his mind what he believed. He tried carrying on the convoluted teachings of Smith, but wasn't quite as imaginative.

[Chrawnus]

You're such a girl.

Don't you think that's a bit insulting to all girls out there, comparing nrajeff with them?

[Cow Poke]

Don't you think that's a bit insulting to all girls out there, comparing nrajeff with them?

Yes, and it's a double insult to Punkinhead. I am deeply sorry and I regret having said it. My apologies to girls everywhere.

[Bill the Cat]

Other statements by BY indicate that he did NOT believe that the deity who is mentioned in the Gospels as being the literal father of Christ was Adam.

Because Young was a wishy washy wanna-be prophet who couldn't make up his mind what he believed. He tried carrying on the convoluted teachings of Smith, but wasn't quite as imaginative.

Journal of Wilford Woodruff; April 9 1852; Quoting Brigham Young.
Our Father begot all the spirits that were before any tabernacle was made. When our Father came into the Garden He came with his Celestial body & brought one of his wives with him and ate of the fruit of the Garden until He could beget a Tabernacle. And Adam is Michael God and all the God that we have anything to do with. They ate of this fruit & formed the first Tabernacle that was formed.

Journal of Wilford Woodruff; April 10, 1852; Quoting Heber C. Kimball.
Some have said that I was very presumptuous to say that Brother Brigham was my God and Savior. Brother Joseph was his God. The one that gave Joseph the keys of the Kingdom was his God, which was Peter. Jesus Christ was his God and the God and Father of Jesus Christ was Adam.

Journal of Samuel H. Rogers, Vol. 1:179; BYU Special Collections, Mss 1134; April 16, 1852. Spelling as in the original.
Conference commenced on the 6 and continued until the 11, it was heled (sp. held) in the new tabernacle, adjourned until the 6 of next October We had the best Conference that I ever attended during the time of the Conference President Brigham Young said that our spirits ware begotten before that Adam came to the Earth and that Adam helped to make the Earth, that he had a Celestial boddy (sp. body) when he came to the Earth and that he brought his wife or one of his wives with him, and that Eave (sp. Eve) was allso (sp. also) a Celestial being, that they eat of the fruit of the ground until they begat children from the Earth, he said that Adam was the onley (sp. only) God that we would have, and that Christ was not begotten of the Holy Gost, but of the Father Adam, that Christ, was our elder brother.

Journal of the Southern Indian Mission--Diary of Thomas D. Brown, p. 87- 89; Friday, 6th Octr. 1854.
Adam & Eve had children in the spirit -- and their children married -- brother & sister -- then the bodies followed.

John Pulsipher Papers, Mss 1041, p. 35-37; BYU Special Collections; 8 October 1854.. Spelling as in original.
when this work was made - our God who is Adam came & commenced the peopling of it- Tho he is God & had lived & died & been reserected on some other plannet- & obtained his exaltation & begat the Spirits of children enough people this world he came down & brot (sp. brought) some of the animal & vegetable productions of some other world so that they might grow & increase here - He by eating the mortal fruits of the Earth, it caused & produced mortal children or commenced the increase of men on the Earth which is the bodies for the Spirits to live in

John Pulsipher Papers, Mss 1041, p. 35-37; BYU Special Collections; 8 October 1854.. Spelling as in original.
There are Lords many & Gods many But the God that we have to account to, is the father of our Spirits--Adam

Diary, Joseph Lee Robinson, p. 102-103; Oct. 6, 1854.
Attended conference. A very interesting conference; for at this meeting President Brigham Young said thus: That Adam and Eve were the names of the first man and woman of every earth that was ever organized. And that Adam and Eve were the natural Father and Mother of every spirit that comes to this planet or that receives tabernacles on this planet. Consequently we are brothers and sisters. And that Adam was God our Eternal Father.

JD 7:285-290; Brigham Young, delivered in Salt Lake Tabernacle; October 9, 1859.
Mankind are here because they are the offspring of parents who were first brought here from another planet, and power was given them to propagate their species, and they were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. . . . Adam and Eve are the parents of all pertaining to the flesh, and I would not say that they are not also the parents of our spirits.


Minutes of the Meeting of the Council of the Twelve in Historian's upper room; Great Salt Lake City; April 5. 1860 10 a.m.
O. Pratt: I have heard brother Brigham say that Adam is the Father of our Spirits, and he came here with his resurrected body, to fall for his own children; and I said to him, it leads to an endless number of falls, which leads to sorrow and death: that is revolting to my feelings, even if it were not sustained by revelation

James Beck Journal (Notebook) 1859-1865; October 8th 1861. Spelling as in original.
If faithfull (sp. faithful) a Man will attain to an Adam & the Wife to be an Eve & begat Millions of Spirits who will come forth & receive their Tabernacles upon an earth like this

[lilpixieofterror]

You're such a girl.

I don't complain or whine nearly as much as Jeff does. Personally, I'd say a drama queen myself.

[OtherCheek]

“I have known many times I have preached wrong.” (Brigham Young, Thomas Bullock minutes, May 8 1854, Church Historical
Department)

“In trying all matters of doctrine, to make a decision valid, it is necessary to obtain a unanimous voice, faith, and decision. In the capacity of a Quorum, the three First Presidents must be one in their voice the Twelve Apostles must be unanimous in their voice, to obtain a righteous decision upon any matter that may come before them, as you may read in the Doctrine and Covenants. . . . Whenever you see these Quorums unanimous in their declaration, you may set it down as true” (Journal of Discourses 9:91-92)

"We believe in God the Father and in Jesus Christ our elder brother. We believe that God is a person of tabernacle, possessing in an infinitely higher degree all the perfections and qualifications of his mortal children. We believe that he made Adam after his own image and likeness, as Moses testified. . . ." (JD, 10:230-31.)

[OtherCheek]

I DO have an example, and I started a thread on the very same subject. All I got was a bunch of handwaving and bad excuses. Just so you can find it here is the link.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...-was-Right!-!-!!

In LDS vernacular, "Ancient of Days" is not a singular title for a singular person. We also believe in more scriptures than the Bible. We believe the Bible does not contain all of God's wisdom, or revelations.

Whine all you want, but those are the facts.

[OtherCheek]

Journal of Wilford Woodruff; April 9 1852; Quoting Brigham Young.
Our Father begot all the spirits that were before any tabernacle was made. When our Father came into the Garden He came with his Celestial body & brought one of his wives with him and ate of the fruit of the Garden until He could beget a Tabernacle. And Adam is Michael God and all the God that we have anything to do with. They ate of this fruit & formed the first Tabernacle that was formed.

Journal of Wilford Woodruff; April 10, 1852; Quoting Heber C. Kimball.
Some have said that I was very presumptuous to say that Brother Brigham was my God and Savior. Brother Joseph was his God. The one that gave Joseph the keys of the Kingdom was his God, which was Peter. Jesus Christ was his God and the God and Father of Jesus Christ was Adam.

Journal of Samuel H. Rogers, Vol. 1:179; BYU Special Collections, Mss 1134; April 16, 1852. Spelling as in the original.
Conference commenced on the 6 and continued until the 11, it was heled (sp. held) in the new tabernacle, adjourned until the 6 of next October We had the best Conference that I ever attended during the time of the Conference President Brigham Young said that our spirits ware begotten before that Adam came to the Earth and that Adam helped to make the Earth, that he had a Celestial boddy (sp. body) when he came to the Earth and that he brought his wife or one of his wives with him, and that Eave (sp. Eve) was allso (sp. also) a Celestial being, that they eat of the fruit of the ground until they begat children from the Earth, he said that Adam was the onley (sp. only) God that we would have, and that Christ was not begotten of the Holy Gost, but of the Father Adam, that Christ, was our elder brother.

Journal of the Southern Indian Mission--Diary of Thomas D. Brown, p. 87- 89; Friday, 6th Octr. 1854.
Adam & Eve had children in the spirit -- and their children married -- brother & sister -- then the bodies followed.

John Pulsipher Papers, Mss 1041, p. 35-37; BYU Special Collections; 8 October 1854.. Spelling as in original.
when this work was made - our God who is Adam came & commenced the peopling of it- Tho he is God & had lived & died & been reserected on some other plannet- & obtained his exaltation & begat the Spirits of children enough people this world he came down & brot (sp. brought) some of the animal & vegetable productions of some other world so that they might grow & increase here - He by eating the mortal fruits of the Earth, it caused & produced mortal children or commenced the increase of men on the Earth which is the bodies for the Spirits to live in

John Pulsipher Papers, Mss 1041, p. 35-37; BYU Special Collections; 8 October 1854.. Spelling as in original.
There are Lords many & Gods many But the God that we have to account to, is the father of our Spirits--Adam

Diary, Joseph Lee Robinson, p. 102-103; Oct. 6, 1854.
Attended conference. A very interesting conference; for at this meeting President Brigham Young said thus: That Adam and Eve were the names of the first man and woman of every earth that was ever organized. And that Adam and Eve were the natural Father and Mother of every spirit that comes to this planet or that receives tabernacles on this planet. Consequently we are brothers and sisters. And that Adam was God our Eternal Father.

JD 7:285-290; Brigham Young, delivered in Salt Lake Tabernacle; October 9, 1859.
Mankind are here because they are the offspring of parents who were first brought here from another planet, and power was given them to propagate their species, and they were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. . . . Adam and Eve are the parents of all pertaining to the flesh, and I would not say that they are not also the parents of our spirits.


Minutes of the Meeting of the Council of the Twelve in Historian's upper room; Great Salt Lake City; April 5. 1860 10 a.m.
O. Pratt: I have heard brother Brigham say that Adam is the Father of our Spirits, and he came here with his resurrected body, to fall for his own children; and I said to him, it leads to an endless number of falls, which leads to sorrow and death: that is revolting to my feelings, even if it were not sustained by revelation

James Beck Journal (Notebook) 1859-1865; October 8th 1861. Spelling as in original.
If faithfull (sp. faithful) a Man will attain to an Adam & the Wife to be an Eve & begat Millions of Spirits who will come forth & receive their Tabernacles upon an earth like this

None of these quotes are actual doctrines or LDS teachings. Those require unanimous approval from 15 leaders.

[Cow Poke]

“I have known many times I have preached wrong.” (Brigham Young, Thomas Bullock minutes, May 8 1854, Church Historical
Department)

Did Joseph Smith ever make a similar admission?

[Cow Poke]

None of these quotes are actual doctrines or LDS teachings. Those require unanimous approval from 15 leaders.

That doesn't change the fact that those who heard this "wrong preaching" were steered in a wrong direction, and the seeds of confusion were sown, OC. The "restored" Church sure seemed to have a lot of "wrong preaching".

[Bill the Cat]

None of these quotes are actual doctrines or LDS teachings. Those require unanimous approval from 15 leaders.

Most were made at Conference in the presence of the 12.

[Cerebrum123]

In LDS vernacular, "Ancient of Days" is not a singular title for a singular person. We also believe in more scriptures than the Bible. We believe the Bible does not contain all of God's wisdom, or revelations.

Whine all you want, but those are the facts.

So you deny both the Bible, and your own "prophet's" teachings. Not that surprising, especially considering the logical consequences of believing such nonsense(of course that doesn't stop you from being a Mormon, but oh well ). This is just more handwaving, just as I expected you would do, like in the thread on the topic. You can't face up to the facts, so you make up excuses in order to protect the other false teaching that you do accept.

[Sparko]

Your "exclusive context" is of that quote is very debatable. The quote is in its own paragraph. Also, the quorum of the 12 apostles do not "try" people. That is left to the Stake Presidency and the 12 high counselors of each stake. Either way, the principle of unanimity applies in matters of establishing doctrine as well as in trying / judging offenders.

I gave the link to the entire sermon OC. You can try to wiggle out of it, but it is there for all to read.

Young created doctrine himself. He claimed to be God's prophet and was hearing directly from God, who revealed the things he related to the LDS members. Who are you to question what God told him? Are you calling Young a liar? Either he was a prophet who God spoke to or he was not. If he was, then his teachings are true. If he was not, then you can't trust ANY of your prophets. Which is it?

[Sparko]

Regardless, this Adam-God stuff never was Church Doctrine.

Brigham Young said it was. So either he was a liar or you are wrong.

[Sparko]

Nope. Not in the context of other statements BY said about Jesus and His Father in Heaven--statements that contradict any inference that he was referring to Adam.


It would be Adam, who (BY speculates) came to Earth with an immortal body--which is not so crazy, since Genesis says that Adam DID have start out his life on Earth with an immortal body--and Adam IS the father of Jesus in the same sense that Adam is the father of the human race.

But that is NOT what Young said, Jeff. He said that the Holy Spirit did not impregnate Mary, but that the Heavenly Father did, and then said that the Heavenly father was Adam.
It IS very clear to anyone who reads the sermon Jeff. The problem is that you don't want to believe what Young said and so you have to find some way to believe that he didn't actually say what he said. That is called "rationalizing" and you are very good at that, although you kinda suck at being rational a lot of the time.

Other statements by BY indicate that he did NOT believe that the deity who is mentioned in the Gospels as being the literal father of Christ was Adam. BY taught that Adam was, in the council of heaven before Earth was created, one of the CHILDREN of God the Father who HELPED Him and Christ do some of the planning and creating.

Well I don't think any of us ever accused BY or any of your prophets of being consistent, Jeff. I can find numerous places where Smith contradicted himself too. But go ahead, show me where he said Adam was NOT God.

That means that BY did NOT teach that Adam and the Father in Heaven, the Father of SPIRITS, to whom Jesus prayed as the NT states, are the same being. It's an impossibility.

how can it be an impossibility if I have already posted the plain words of Young saying that Adam was God and our Heavenly Father?

Bruce McConkie, even while denying that the doctrine was true, admitted that Young did teach exactly that:

"Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him." (page 6 of McConkie's letter, attached below)

adampg6.gif

But what do I know? I am only a lifelong LDS who started studying the Adam-God theory in the late 1980s.

exactly. What DO you know Jeff? And what do you want to hide? and what do you want to just ignore and sweep under the rug?