Did Mormons really strike the first blow?

[Bill the Cat]

Good to know that the next time CP and the Gang accuse me of such holy activities, you will be there to provide a Bible-based defense of what I did.

You aren't on the right side though Jeff...

Thanks for the encouragement for us pro-LDS to keep exposing any erroneous assertions that might be made against the LDS church or its leaders/members/doctrines.

If the assertations are in fact erroneous, then I have no problem with you saying so. That's one reason why I inform "my side" not to use The Seer as evidence of past Mormon doctrine.

I already started to expose the error in accusing LDS soteriology of being works-based, so I am off to a good start.

http://www.fairlds.org/authors/tvedtnes-john/salvation-by-grace-alone

It is clear that the gift of salvation was provided by grace, while we were yet in our sins, but that the gift is available only to those who repent and are baptized.

© source where applicable

http://www.jefflindsay.com/grace_def.shtml

When Latter Day Saints use the term salvation they are almost always referring to exaltation. Whereas, most people of other denominations are almost always referring to justification when they use the word "saved". This makes it easy to get locked in arguments originating over simple semantics, not doctrinal differences. Be sure to clarify terms and discuss the different usages of the term "saved" using the scriptures. Doing so will help eliminate misconceptions on both sides. And, it can turn potentially contentious situations into teaching experiences.

© source where applicable

So, which LDS definition of "saved" are you referring to when you mention LDS soteriology, Jeff?

[nrajeff]

"...grace through obedience, which obedience includes obeying..."

What else is included in that obedience?

Besides the commandment to have faith in Christ? Well, obedience to His commandments, too, like He gave in His Sermon on the Mount--love your enemies, etc.
Another answer to "What did Jesus say people should obey?" is:

"Every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God."

[Cow Poke]

Besides the commandment to have faith in Christ? Well, obedience to His commandments, too, like He gave in His Sermon on the Mount--love your enemies, etc.
Another answer to "What did Jesus say people should obey?" is:

"Every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God."

Yes, you get saved, THEN you spend your life living for Jesus!

[One Bad Pig]

Yes, you get saved, THEN you spend your life living for Jesus!

No, salvation is still continuing. I am saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. You repent, THEN you spend your life living for Jesus.

[Bill the Cat]

No, salvation is still continuing. I am saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. You repent, THEN you spend your life living for Jesus.

And even if you fail, you still are saved. As Paul said, as though saved through fire. The only way to lose salvation is complete apostasy.

[Cow Poke]

No, salvation is still continuing. I am saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. You repent, THEN you spend your life living for Jesus.

I don't see how we're not saying the same thing, OBP. And I fully agree with the "am, being, will be" concept.

[Cerebrum123]

Besides the commandment to have faith in Christ? Well, obedience to His commandments, too, like He gave in His Sermon on the Mount--love your enemies, etc.
Another answer to "What did Jesus say people should obey?" is:

"Every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God."

Yeah, Jesus said that, but did He make salvation contingent on our being able to follow it to our absolute best through our entire lives? No, only Joseph Smith did that, and now we have a great deal of people following false doctrines, and to their own detriment.

[nrajeff]

Then why are you complaining that 'this place' is becoming "less and less edifying," hypocrite?

Uh, because I am perhaps the only honest hypocrite here.
The only one who dares to point out that this place is FULL of hypocrites. Prove me wrong by admitting that you are a hypocrite, too. By the way--if you actually believe that this plance is becoming MORE and MORE edifying, then do you really have have grounds for your complaining?

The only reason I am in this forum is for edification regarding the LDS faith.

Then you are a rara avis here. How many threads that are started by anti-LDS people REALLY have "edification regarding the LDS faith" mas their raison d'etre?

Unfortunately, that's proving to be rather elusive - in part, it turns out, because the most active LDS poster at the moment cares little, or perhaps not at all, about edifying people concerning his faith.

It's hard to educate people while they're throwing stones at you. It's also hard to educate people who really aren't here to be educated as much as they're here to make sport of ridiculing people who have different beliefs.

[nrajeff]

Yeah, Jesus said that, but did He make salvation contingent on our being able to follow it to our absolute best through our entire lives? No, only Joseph Smith did that, and now we have a great deal of people following false doctrines, and to their own detriment.

You are free to start a thread asking "What are Christ's standards? How high can a church believe His standards are without those standards becoming false doctrines to the detriment of that church's members?"

[lilpixieofterror]

Uh, because I am perhaps the only honest hypocrite here.

I'm sorry Jeff, but since I haven't condemned insults of all stripes, I am not a hypocrite, but if your goal is to make yourself look bad and destroy the last ounce of credibility you might of had around here. Congrads, you have done a very good job of it.

[Cow Poke]

It's hard to educate people while they're throwing stones at you. It's also hard to educate people who really aren't here to be educated as much as they're here to make sport of ridiculing people who have different beliefs.

If you could "educate" me on why Joseph Smith is NOT a false prophet, and why the BoM is NOT a work of fiction, Jeff... I'd be very happy to consider your "teaching". The Holy Spirit of the Living God has convinced me that Smith was a false prophet, and the BoM is not scripture, so you obviously have a tough job to do.

[Cerebrum123]

You are free to start a thread asking "What are Christ's standards? How high can a church believe His standards are without those standards becoming false doctrines to the detriment of that church's members?"

That's the thing Jeff, the standards of Jesus Christ would be at the level of perfection, which we can never reach, which is why works will never save us. Our works are as "filthy rags", and even if we did "all we can do" we would still only have a pile of filthy rags to offer. That is why salvation is based on faith, and not works.

[Cow Poke]

That's the thing Jeff, the standards of Jesus Christ would be at the level of perfection, which we can never reach, which is why works will never save us. Our works are as "filthy rags", and even if we did "all we can do" we would still only have a pile of filthy rags to offer. That is why salvation is based on faith, and not works.

... by God's grace!

[eudyptes]

Besides the commandment to have faith in Christ? Well, obedience to His commandments, too, like He gave in His Sermon on the Mount--love your enemies, etc.
Another answer to "What did Jesus say people should obey?" is:

"Every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God."

So if we fail to be obedient in ALL things then we don't have salvation?
That seems to be what is being said here, please feel free to correct if need be.

If that is the case, then it sure does seem like there is a work based element to what you believe is required for salvation. We have to be perfect (obedient in all things) in order to achieve salvation....(going back to your "grace through obedience" statement).

[One Bad Pig]

I don't see how we're not saying the same thing, OBP. And I fully agree with the "am, being, will be" concept.

We may well mean the same thing, but your statement can be taken otherwise; it implies that salvation is fully accomplished before one lives for Jesus rather than continuing as one does so.