Did Mormons really strike the first blow?

[ke7ejx]

No, he was assassinated before he went crazy.

I dunno there were plenty of folks who thought his tree didn't go all the way to the top branch.

[Don80]

Hi

It's not about publishing dates, don't forget that 1 Nephi 13:24-26 in the Book of Mormon also blatantly accuses Christians of altering the Bible. I would say that because the passage in Joseph Smith - History is part of the LDS canon, Christians have a duty to reply, just as we do to Muslim claims about Muhammad and the Koran.

If these claims were not part of your Scriptures, or Joseph Smith's teaching, then maybe you could argue that "first blows" matter. I don't think it actually matters much. Either way, Christians have a duty to stand up for truth. Of course we are going to respond when your faith says all our creeds are an abomination, and the Bible is corrupt - just as I expect you to respond when we say Joseph Smith was a false prophet.

The Mormon Church may not publicly demonize anyones faith, but its missionary effort clearly says that they believe they have the truth and we don't. But again, this invites a response from those you say are wrong.

[Cow Poke]

I dunno there were plenty of folks who thought his tree didn't go all the way to the top branch.

Even a TINY tree goes....

[eudyptes]

48.955% of statistics are made up on the spot.

..and 71.08% quote the statistic wrong.....it's 48.954%....and you can't claim a rounding issue.....jeeeze if you're going to make up a stat make it up right

[nrajeff]

I don't think it actually matters much. Either way, Christians have a duty to stand up for truth. Of course we are going to respond when your faith says all our creeds are an abomination, and the Bible is corrupt - just as I expect you to respond when we say Joseph Smith was a false prophet.

Do you, as an anti-LDS Evangelical (a presumption, so if you're not one, sorry, and please correct as necessary), also have a duty to " respond" and to "stand up for truth" regarding what pre-Joseph-Smith Christians said about the state of post-Apostolic Christendom--when the things they said about it are so similar to what Joseph Smith said about it?

[Cerebrum123]

Do you, as an anti-LDS Evangelical (a presumption, so if you're not one, sorry, and please correct as necessary), also have a duty to " respond" and to "stand up for truth" regarding what pre-Joseph-Smith Christians said about the state of post-Apostolic Christendom--when the things they said about it are so similar to what Joseph Smith said about it?

Where have any of them said that ALL of Christianity had become "apostate"? I have seen you show some general opinions about how there had been some bad things happening, but nothing like the total apostasy that Smith claimed. Not only that, he claimed that he had "restored" the Church to what it was "supposed" to be, but he did so with things that are obviously false, and inherently contradictory to the Bible itself.

[Cow Poke]

Do you, as an anti-LDS Evangelical (a presumption, so if you're not one, sorry, and please correct as necessary), also have a duty to " respond" and to "stand up for truth" regarding what pre-Joseph-Smith Christians said about the state of post-Apostolic Christendom--when the things they said about it are so similar to what Joseph Smith said about it?

What, exactly, did Smith say? OC seems to challenge us on what Smith actually SAID.

[Sparko]

Do you, as an anti-LDS Evangelical (a presumption, so if you're not one, sorry, and please correct as necessary), also have a duty to " respond" and to "stand up for truth" regarding what pre-Joseph-Smith Christians said about the state of post-Apostolic Christendom--when the things they said about it are so similar to what Joseph Smith said about it?

If they said stuff like Joseph Smith did, then they wouldn't actually BE Christians, Jeff, Just like Smith was not.

But yes we do defend against other heresies besides Joseph Smith's. Such as Christian Science, Jehovah's Witnesses, Armstrongism, and so on.

2 Corinthians 10:5
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Galatians 1:7 ...Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

[nrajeff]

Where have any of them said that ALL of Christianity had become "apostate"?

Are you quoting Joseph Smith? If so, where's the link to him saying that ALL of Christianity had become "apostate"?

To answer your hopefully-not-a-strawman question:


John Wesley wrote this about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit that he says all but ceased from post-apostolic Christendom:

"We seldom hear of them after that fatal period when the emperor Constantine called himself a Christian, and from a vain imagination of promoting the Christian cause thereby, heaped riches and power and honor upon Christians in general, but in particular upon the Christian clergy. From this time they almost totally ceased; very few instances of the kind were found....The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other heathens. The Son of Man, when he came to examine His Church, could hardly find faith upon the earth. This was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian Church ... The Christians were turned heathens again, and only had a dead form left." (Wesley's Works)


Now, I feel I should say in Wesley's defense that he did not say that ALL Christians had lost the gifts of the Spirit--nor did he say that ALL Christians had lost faith and had ALL become heathens.

And I think you should say something similar about what Joseph Smith said, if you want to be fair.

I have seen you show some general opinions about how there had been some bad things happening, but nothing like the total apostasy that Smith claimed.

Maybe you haven't seen it because you are new here, but CP, BTC et al are SICK--to the point of drama--of seeing the claims from pre-LDS Christians who said things similar to what Smith said.

The moving goal posts go something like this, and maybe you will surprise me by NOT following the pattern:

1. Anti-LDS is skeptical of the idea that pre-LDS Christians said things about post-apostolic Christendom that were similar to what Smith said about post-apostolic Christendom. Anti-LDS asks for evidence.

2. Pro-LDS provides evidence in the form of quotes from certain pre-LDS Christians.

3. Anti-LDS, realizing that his request has been met, then feels the need to switch to "But those guys never claimed to be infallible prophets" as if that argument is relevant to the issue of whether pre-LDS Christians said things about post-apostolic Christendom that were similar to what Smith said about post-apostolic Christendom.

[Bill the Cat]

Maybe you haven't seen it because you are new here, but CP, BTC et al are SICK--to the point of drama--of seeing the claims from pre-LDS Christians who said things similar to what Smith said.

The moving goal posts go something like this, and maybe you will surprise me by NOT following the pattern:

1. Anti-LDS is skeptical of the idea that pre-LDS Christians said things about post-apostolic Christendom that were similar to what Smith said about post-apostolic Christendom. Anti-LDS asks for evidence.

2. Pro-LDS provides evidence in the form of quotes from certain pre-LDS Christians.

3. Anti-LDS, realizing that his request has been met, then feels the need to switch to "But those guys never claimed to be infallible prophets" as if that argument is relevant to the issue of whether pre-LDS Christians said things about post-apostolic Christendom that were similar to what Smith said about post-apostolic Christendom.

You are completely delusional, Jeff.

[Cow Poke]

Maybe you haven't seen it because you are new here, but CP, BTC et al are SICK--to the point of drama--

What a DRAMA QUEEN! Sick? Tired, perhaps, of your quote mining and "out of context" taking. Jeff, when a DRAMA QUEEN accuses others of DRAMA when there is no drama, it just underscores the accusation that you are, indeed a DRAMA QUEEN.

...of seeing the claims from pre-LDS Christians who said things similar to what Smith said.

You started off with Roger Williams "the Baptist Preacher" and had to be corrected on that, then you have taken quotes out of context, because the same person who supposedly said what you claimed, ALSO said things to discount what you infer from what was said.... And even if they DID say something "similar" to Smith's statements, they had very limited knowledge of what was happening globally in the Christian Church.

[nrajeff]

You are completely delusional, Jeff.

So you're saying that you're NOT sick--to the point of dramatic outburts--of seeing the quotes?

Let's see:

You are completely delusional, Jeff.

Sure looks like a dramatic outburst, and it sure seems to indicate that you're sick.

[Cow Poke]

So you're saying that you're NOT sick--to the point of dramatic outburts--of seeing the quotes?

Let's see:

Sure looks like a dramatic outburst, and it sure seems to indicate that you're sick.

To those of us less drama inclined, it appears more as a dismissive observation.

[nrajeff]

What a DRAMA QUEEN! Sick?

I didn't intentionally mean "sick" as in "mentally disturbed" but maybe it is inadvertently apropos. I meant "sick" as in "sick and tired" of those quotes. Maybe a course in idioms would help you? Anyway, this isn't really about you--it's about Cerebrum's claim that to his knowledge, no one had provided such quotes. (Hint: It's not always about you, so stop trying to make it about you.)

You started off with Roger Williams "the Baptist Preacher" and had to be corrected on that

Oh? What did you "correct" about his having been a CHRISTIAN, and about his having said the things that he said?

NOTHING. You are trying to make it look like the fact that Williams was not always a nominal Baptist seem like some dramatic victory for you, when it's really just pedantry since the real issue was whether he was a pre-LDS CHRISTIAN and whether he said the things he said.

Then you have taken quotes out of context, because the same person who supposedly said what you claimed, ALSO said things to discount what you infer from what was said....

You will have to explain what you are talking about. What could Williams have REALLY meant? What are these "other things that discount what" I "inferred"?

What do YOU think he meant when he said that

"there is no regularly-constituted church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any Church ordinance: nor can there be, until new apostles are sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking....the apostasy ... hath so far corrupted all, that there can be no recovery out of that apostasy until Christ shall send forth new apostles to plant churches anew" ?

What did he "REALLY mean" there, CP? And if what he REALLY meant refutes what it SEEMS he was saying there, then why did you try to distance yourself from him, implying that he was a radical whose ideas were suspect?

And even if they DID say something "similar" to Smith's statements, they had very limited knowledge of what was happening globally in the Christian Church.

Has anyone disputed that qualifier that you felt needed to be added?

[One Bad Pig]

Are you quoting Joseph Smith? If so, where's the link to him saying that ALL of Christianity had become "apostate"?

To answer your hopefully-not-a-strawman question:


John Wesley wrote this about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit that he says all but ceased from post-apostolic Christendom:

"We seldom hear of them after that fatal period when the emperor Constantine called himself a Christian, and from a vain imagination of promoting the Christian cause thereby, heaped riches and power and honor upon Christians in general, but in particular upon the Christian clergy. From this time they almost totally ceased; very few instances of the kind were found....The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other heathens. The Son of Man, when he came to examine His Church, could hardly find faith upon the earth. This was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian Church ... The Christians were turned heathens again, and only had a dead form left." (Wesley's Works)

If the LDS are the restoration of the Church that John Wesley is talking about, then they should have many examples of extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost in their organization, yes? Let's see some of those.