Did Mormons really strike the first blow?

[One Bad Pig]

You don't think that OBP was aware of that when he asked his question?

Yes, I was aware of that. I'm also aware that this is the closest you've come to acknowledging the question, let alone answering it.

[nrajeff]

Yes, I was aware of that. I'm also aware that this is the closest you've come to acknowledging the question, let alone answering it.

I take it my response (post 158) to your question didn't count, in your mind, as acknowledging it.

If that's a correct inference, then I can try again.

Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
If the LDS are the restoration of the Church that John Wesley is talking about,
then they should have many examples of extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost in their organization, yes?

I think a qualified "yes" is the correct answer. The caveats are:

1. Any claims of an example of such gifts are likely to be dismissed as fictitious (or Satan's doings) by people who are already skeptical of the church in question;

2. The term "many" is problematic because one person's definition (e.g., yours) of it may vary from another's.

3. Common sense suggests that if such miracles occurred, the total published (and known) accounts of such miracles will constitute some fraction of the total number of such miracles that actually occurred. In other words, whatever number of accounts of such gifts exist, it may not impress some people as being "many" but that doesn't prove that there weren't many such events. Not even the Bible contains exhaustive accounts of how many of a certain event occurred, and presumably you believe that the Bible is hard to beat as far as accurate recounting of events is concerned.

Let's see some of those.

I provided a link that I thought might lead to what you seek, but evidently you found it unsatisfactory. Can you say why it didn't count as "some of those" ?

(Depending on your definition of those gifts, some accounts may be found here:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smit...s_and_miracles )

The site didn't have anything at all along the lines of what you were looking for?

I trust this post comes closer to qualifying as acknowledging your question. : )

[Cow Poke]

2. The term "many" is problematic because one person's definition (e.g., yours) of it may vary from another's.

3. Common sense suggests that if such miracles occurred, the total published (and known) accounts of such miracles will constitute some fraction of the total number of such miracles that actually occurred. In other words, whatever number of accounts of such gifts exist, it may not impress some people as being "many" but that doesn't prove that there weren't many such events. Not even the Bible contains exhaustive accounts of how many of a certain event occurred, and presumably you believe that the Bible is hard to beat as far as accurate recounting of events is concerned.

Here's a good benchmark of "many" for ya....

John 21:25 KJV

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

That's a LOT! And it's in the BIBLE!

[nrajeff]

Here's a good benchmark of "many" for ya....

John 21:25 KJV

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

That's a LOT!

Yeah, I don't think we have that "many" documented cases of gifts of the Spirit occurring in LDS history yet. But we have only been around since 1830. It may take a few more years to reach the Biblical "many" mark...

[Cow Poke]

Yeah, I don't think we have that "many" documented cases of gifts of the Spirit occurring in LDS history yet. But we have only been around since 1830. It may take a few more years to reach the Biblical "many" mark...

It wasn't talking about 2000 years of Church history, Jeff --- it was talking about the very short ministry of Jesus.

[nrajeff]

It wasn't talking about 2000 years of Church history, Jeff --- it was talking about the very short ministry of Jesus.

And I was talking about accounts so numerous that if they were all recorded, there wouldn't be enough space on the entire planet to contain the books. If you are seriously asserting that John wasn't exaggerating (or being disingenuous/dishonest, as some might accuse), then you will have a challenging time quantifying the number of spiritual events that you apparently believe any legitimate Christian church must document and provide for peer review.

[Cow Poke]

And I was talking about accounts so numerous that if they were all recorded, there wouldn't be enough space on the entire planet to contain the books. If you are seriously asserting that John wasn't exaggerating (or being disingenuous/dishonest, as some might accuse), then you will have a challenging time quantifying the number of spiritual events that you apparently believe any legitimate Christian church must document and provide for peer review.

I said....

That's a LOT! And it's in the BIBLE!

Leave it to you to throw John under the bus with that "being disingenuous/dishonest" crap. Sometimes I think you just start typing and can't stop.

[nrajeff]

I said....

You said a bunch of nonsense.

Leave it to you to throw John under the bus with that "being disingenuous/dishonest" crap.

Have you so soon forgotten that you are the king of such accusations? If someone says something that you feel isn't correct, you shoot first and consider your backstop later, by throwing out the "Why are you being so dishonest?" line of BS. So, since you're not an inconsistent, double-standard-using hypocrite, you can't leave Bible heroes out of your scope. You don't give other people the benefit of "Forgivably inaccurate" so you just threw John the Apostle under the bus. Congrats.

[Cow Poke]

Have you so soon forgotten that you are the king of such accusations? If someone says something that you feel isn't correct, you shoot first and consider your backstop later, by throwing out the "Why are you being so dishonest?" line of BS. So, since you're not an inconsistent, double-standard-using hypocrite, you can't leave Bible heroes out of your scope. You don't give other people the benefit of "Forgivably inaccurate" so you just threw John the Apostle under the bus. Congrats.

You win, Jeff.... I withdraw.

---We should all care about how our treatment of others helps or hurts the credibility of our arguments...not to mention how it reflects on our religion.

[Sparko]

so Many = a LOT > a few.

Bible math!

[Sparko]

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smit...s_and_miracles )

I went there.

Here is what it says:

Joseph Smit...s and miracles
There is currently no text in this page.

Yep, that's a LOT/MANY!

[Bill the Cat]

I went there.

Here is what it says:

Joseph Smit...s and miracles
There is currently no text in this page.

Yep, that's a LOT/MANY!

He meant http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smit...s_and_miracles

[nrajeff]

He meant http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smit...s_and_miracles

Thanks for pointing that out for him. Sparko's a 'special kid' and he needs a little help sometimes.

[Sparko]

Thanks for pointing that out for him. Sparko's a 'special kid' and he needs a little help sometimes.

I just like pointing out the irony in a situation.

[Bill the Cat]

I just like pointing out the irony in a situation.

I thought that it was funny too!