Did Mormons really strike the first blow?

[One Bad Pig]

I take it my response (post 158) to your question didn't count, in your mind, as acknowledging it.

If that's a correct inference, then I can try again.

I apologize. You were talking so much about Williams in response to my question about Wesley that I missed your link below that.

I think a qualified "yes" is the correct answer. The caveats are:

1. Any claims of an example of such gifts are likely to be dismissed as fictitious (or Satan's doings) by people who are already skeptical of the church in question;

2. The term "many" is problematic because one person's definition (e.g., yours) of it may vary from another's.

3. Common sense suggests that if such miracles occurred, the total published (and known) accounts of such miracles will constitute some fraction of the total number of such miracles that actually occurred. In other words, whatever number of accounts of such gifts exist, it may not impress some people as being "many" but that doesn't prove that there weren't many such events. Not even the Bible contains exhaustive accounts of how many of a certain event occurred, and presumably you believe that the Bible is hard to beat as far as accurate recounting of events is concerned.

On the contrary, Mormon history suggests that anything that could have possibly been construed as a miracle would have been written down; your early leaders were quite prolific writers.

I provided a link that I thought might lead to what you seek, but evidently you found it unsatisfactory. Can you say why it didn't count as "some of those" ?

(Depending on your definition of those gifts, some accounts may be found here:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smit...s_and_miracles )

The site didn't have anything at all along the lines of what you were looking for?

I trust this post comes closer to qualifying as acknowledging your question. : )

That link (well, Bill's corrected link) counts, thanks. I apologize for not noticing it before. The initial account is fairly obviously psychosomatic, so it's a rather weak lead-in. The cholera accounts are also not persuasive. The others may well have been miraculous healings. I would think, though, that the restoration of the apostolic church would have rather more than that. Even the allegedly apostate church of St. Augustine's time was quite liberally blessed with miracles (see The City of God Book 22, Ch. 8).

I should perhaps point out that John Wesley's time was a particularly low point for the English church, which he was instrumental in turning around. He can be forgiven for not being able to see beyond his circumstances to, say, the Orthodox Church, where miracles still occur every year. I know of several associated with a pair of weeping icons in Pennsylvania (news of which has eventually gotten out despite the church not publicizing them at all).

[nrajeff]

I apologize. You were talking so much about Williams in response to my question about Wesley that I missed your link below that.

That is a relief to know. Thanks.

On the contrary, Mormon history suggests that anything that could have possibly been construed as a miracle would have been written down; your early leaders were quite prolific writers.

Yes, a lot of the time. But long-time LDS, or serious students of it such as Jan Shipps e.g., are likely to learn of miraculous events that don't get publicized--either because the setting in which they occurred simply wasn't public enough in the first place, or because people were specifically told that it would be inappropriate to "advertise" it. In the early days of both churches (The original, 1st-century church and the LDS church in the 1830s-50s), marvelous miracles are said to have occurred and been witnessed by many people. There is no shortage of such accounts in LDS literature, such as "Temple Manifestations." There is even an event that has been nicknamed "The LDS Pentecost."
But as time goes by, public "displays" like that seem to become less common in both churches. The reason for that is debatable. Wesley thought it was caused by a descent into paganism in Christendom; whether he was right or not is irrelevant at the moment.

My point is that in both churches, the actual number of miraculous events is very likely to be much higher than the extant, public literature indicates. It's like a tip of an iceberg.

The initial account is fairly obviously psychosomatic, so it's a rather weak lead-in.

One admitted skeptic's 'fairly obviously psychosomatic' is another Charismatic Christian's obviously a genuine manifestation.

The cholera accounts are also not persuasive. The others may well have been miraculous healings. I would think, though, that the restoration of the apostolic church would have rather more than that.

I would not presume to dictate what the exact quantity should be, especially when, as I said, miracles within ANY church are probably a fraction of what actually occurs.

Even the allegedly apostate church of St. Augustine's time was quite liberally blessed with miracles

Maybe it had a better PR dept. or inflated its claims beyond accuracy. Bottom line is that signs and wonder WILL exist in any true branch of the church, but they MAY also exist in false ones. And, God gets to decide how many of the signs and wonders we actually get to know about. Just because the number you know of isn't a lot by your standards, I may know of many more, or I may know of the same number as you but it is a lot by my standards. Or maybe the number is a lot on a per capita basis when a church only has a few thousand members. Trying to nail down exact criteria is futile IMO, since there are too many variables and the scriptures were vague as to numbers the average non-member should be aware of.

I should perhaps point out that John Wesley's time was a particularly low point for the English church, which he was instrumental in turning around.

I have found his writings to be quite interesting to read. He mentions fantastic miracles occurring in his presence, or of hearing of their occurrence after he had left a town.

So even though he seemed to think that Christianity had lost many of the gifts, there seemed to be no shortage of them in areas where he worked to establish or retrench churches.

He can be forgiven for not being able to see beyond his circumstances to, say, the Orthodox Church, where miracles still occur every year. I know of several associated with a pair of weeping icons in Pennsylvania (news of which has eventually gotten out despite the church not publicizing them at all).

I agree that he and many of the Reformers and Orthodox and lots of others can and should be forgiven for certain things they said, did, or believed back in olden days.

[Cow Poke]

My point is that in both churches, the actual number of miraculous events is very likely to be much higher than the extant, public literature indicates. It's like a tip of an iceberg.

Anything in Mormonism even remotely close to the feeding of the 5,000 or the raising of Lazarus from the dead? Or do you discount or downplay these events like you seemed to do with John's account of the "many" things Jesus did which are not recorded?

[nrajeff]

Anything in Mormonism even remotely close to the feeding of the 5,000 or the raising of Lazarus from the dead? Or do you discount or downplay these events like you seemed to do with John's account of the "many" things Jesus did which are not recorded?

So you have some kind of grading curve or conversion chart, where 5000 individual healings are equivalent, points-wise, to one feeding of 5000 en masse?

[Cow Poke]

So you have some kind of grading curve or conversion chart, where 5000 individual healings are equivalent, points-wise, to one feeding of 5000 en masse?

No. But I'll take that as a "no" from you on my question.

[Bill the Cat]

OK boys... put 'em away.... and don't forget to zip up...

[ke7ejx]

OK boys... put 'em away.... and don't forget to zip up...

Thank you, Bill. We actually agreed on something.

[nrajeff]

OK boys... put 'em away.... and don't forget to zip up...

Like you should have done in the "You smarmy little worm" thread? Posters who believe they are defending the truth from imposters and blackguards tend to think they are--a high % of the time--in the right, and whizzing matches seem an inevitability.

Anyway, yes, there are accounts of mass healings, miraculous signs and wonders (one time during a special night-time meeting in a temple when the glory of the Lord made it glow so brightly, and was noticeable for such a distance, that someone in town thought the temple was burning and alerted the fire department. (This was before the advent of electric lighting)

And yes, there were cases of people being virtually raised from the dead.
And no, there is no account of instantaneous food materializing to feed 5000 people.
But there are accounts of giving what a person thought was the last of their food or money to a needy person, and then finding that it had been miraculously replaced.

Overall, nothing surpassing what Jesus did, IMO.