Did Mormons really strike the first blow?

[Sparko]

Yeah, I would rather be around someone who honestly disagrees with, and doesn't like me, then someone who pretends that they do like me.

I wouldn't even take him calling me or my beliefs "apostate" or "corrupt" as not liking me. I would figure he had to at least care enough to point out that he thinks my beliefs are wrong. That would be a good thing.

[Cerebrum123]

I wouldn't even take him calling me or my beliefs "apostate" or "corrupt" as not liking me. I would figure he had to at least care enough to point out that he thinks my beliefs are wrong. That would be a good thing.

I agree with you, but I was trying to say that even a person who honestly dislikes me is better than someone who pretends to be friendly, while all the while they are thinking that I am "corrupt" or "apostate". I actually DO like both of them, Jeff can actually be pretty funny, and OC seems very nice, but I know that they are following a false "prophet", and "another Gospel which is no Gospel at all". If I didn't like them, I wouldn't even be telling them this.

[Cow Poke]

Yeah, I would rather be around someone who honestly disagrees with, and doesn't like me, then someone who pretends that they do like me.

Better yet - somebody like Punkinhead with whom I TOTALLY disagree on matters related to Mormonism, but whom I respect and count a friend!

[nrajeff]

There were earlier instances too. Look up "THE BOOK OF PUKEI....

Yes, that's right. I had forgotten about that one.

[nrajeff]

Yeah, I would rather be around someone who honestly disagrees with, and doesn't like me, then someone who pretends that they do like me.

I would not want to hang around with either one. If I HAD to choose to be around one of the two, it would be a difficult decision.

[nrajeff]

OC, you are acting like unless something was actually published and survived till now, it didn't happen.

That is a valid point, IMO, since I use that same reasoning on antis who say that if there really had been ancient scriptures and accounts of pre-Columbian settlers who came from the Old World to the New World, there would be evidence discovered, identified, and on display right now.

[Sparko]

That is a valid point, IMO, since I use that same reasoning on antis who say that if there really had been ancient scriptures and accounts of pre-Columbian settlers who came from the Old World to the New World, there would be evidence discovered, identified, and on display right now.

Except we are talking about the start of some arguments between two sides here, not physical evidence for some ancient civilization.

The LDS would never have gotten off the ground without Smith telling them some story about how God told him that only he had the truth and all the rest of Christianity was wrong and corrupt. So he HAD to have "struck the first blow" regardless of when he actually PUBLISHED his first vision.

[mossrose]

You know, I talk to God all the time, and He told me that Joseph Smith was a liar and a con man and that he has led millions of people astray with his made up stories.

And I felt a burning in my bosom when God told me that.

:smugmossy:

Drat.

[OtherCheek]

Except we are talking about the start of some arguments between two sides here, not physical evidence for some ancient civilization.

The LDS would never have gotten off the ground without Smith telling them some story about how God told him that only he had the truth and all the rest of Christianity was wrong and corrupt. So he HAD to have "struck the first blow" regardless of when he actually PUBLISHED his first vision.

I think the primary conversion tool was the BoM as it is today. There were no formal organized lessons at that early time. The BoM was just handed to people who asked for a copy, and they felt the Spirit confirm the truth to their heart.

The evidence points to the idea that Joseph was first persecuted because he claimed to see a vision from God, or that he had discovered a "gold bible" and that he translated it into a book, and that he did it by the power and gift of God. There was a lot of jealousy, and jealousy creates animosity, even among the so-called Christians who persecuted him.

[Cow Poke]

I think the primary conversion tool was the BoM as it is today. There were no formal organized lessons at that early time. The BoM was just handed to people who asked for a copy, and they felt the Spirit confirm the truth to their heart.

How do you know this, OC? When we give an opinion like that, we get a lecture from you on "presentism". You weren't there. You really don't know. Nor do I. We read the periodicals and journals form the day, and there's a lot of controversy.

The evidence

The evidence you choose to accept, perhaps.

points to the idea that Joseph was first persecuted because he claimed to see a vision from God, or that he had discovered a "gold bible" and that he translated it into a book, and that he did it by the power and gift of God.

That most likely was part of the equation.

There was a lot of jealousy, and jealousy creates animosity, even among the so-called Christians who persecuted him.

And, you know this how? There are many other reports that give conflicting accounts.

[nrajeff]

The LDS would never have gotten off the ground without Smith telling them some story about how God told him that only he had the truth and all the rest of Christianity was wrong and corrupt. So he HAD to have "struck the first blow" regardless of when he actually PUBLISHED his first vision.

And how is your track record when it comes to turning the other cheek in regard to something that a man born in 1805 supposedly did to you?

[OtherCheek]

You are going to see what you want to see, OC. And when you finish a post like this with "thanks", like that, it's a telltale sign that you're being disingenuous.

Smith was a false prophet, and quite a charismatic one. For ME, PERSONALLY, Smith's lies about my beliefs were, of course, PRIOR to my opposition to Mormonism. The fact that others were mad at him BEFORE that is totally beside the point.

It is a total fabrication that God or angels or personages or ANYBODY told Smith that "all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

It's a disgusting lie, just like Smith's claim that God told him that Emma would be destroyed if she didn't go along with the infidelity scheme.

Does it make you FEEL BETTER that there were other people mad at Smith for reasons OTHER than his imaginary "first vision"?

Unfortunately, all of this is irrelevant to the topic of this post.

[nrajeff]

You know, I talk to God all the time,

What do the people around you think about that, when it occurs? Do they call for men in white coats to show up?

and He told me that Joseph Smith was a liar and a con man and that he has led millions of people astray with his made up stories.

How do you know it was God, and not:

a) Satan masquerading as God or as an angel of light;

b) some bad acid that someone slipped into your drink;

c) an aneurysm that is causing schizophrenia

??

And I felt a burning in my bosom when God told me that.

And you TRUSTED it--you trusted your HEART? The most deceitful, untrustworthy thing in the entire Bible?

Drat indeed!

[Cow Poke]

Unfortunately, all of this is irrelevant to the topic of this post.

Well, I can certainly understand why you would want to be so dismissive, but the truth is that MY reason for opposing the Mormon Church was summed up in that. REGARDLESS of when the alleged "first vision" (whatever version of it that might be) was published.

So, yeah, it's kind of applicable.

[Sparko]

I think the primary conversion tool was the BoM as it is today. There were no formal organized lessons at that early time. The BoM was just handed to people who asked for a copy, and they felt the Spirit confirm the truth to their heart.

The evidence points to the idea that Joseph was first persecuted because he claimed to see a vision from God, or that he had discovered a "gold bible" and that he translated it into a book, and that he did it by the power and gift of God. There was a lot of jealousy, and jealousy creates animosity, even among the so-called Christians who persecuted him.

We are talking before there was a BoM. Smith had to get people to follow him, so he had to tell them some story, and he had to convince them that he was the harbinger of truth and that the other churches had it all wrong. That is central and primary to the LDS movement to have even started, OC.