Did Mormons really strike the first blow?

[Sparko]

And how is your track record when it comes to turning the other cheek in regard to something that a man born in 1805 supposedly did to you?

eh?

Smith was a false teacher and you follow his teachings. I truly believe that Jeff. I am obligated to let you know that what you believe is false and to show you how your religion's founder was lying to you. If you want to take that as being sinful in some way, then that is your problem, not mine. I owe neither Smith nor you "my other cheek"

[mossrose]

What do the people around you think about that, when it occurs? Do they call for men in white coats to show up?


How do you know it was God, and not:

a) Satan masquerading as God or as an angel of light;

b) some bad acid that someone slipped into your drink;

c) an aneurysm that is causing schizophrenia

??



And you TRUSTED it--you trusted your HEART? The most deceitful, untrustworthy thing in the entire Bible?

Drat indeed!

I'd like the same answers regarding your "faith" in the little brass plates, you anti-Christian, you.

[OtherCheek]

eh?
I owe neither Smith nor you "my other cheek"

Well, since you've been kicked so hard in the one cheek, why not offer the other one so we can match it?

[OtherCheek]

Well, I can certainly understand why you would want to be so dismissive, but the truth is that MY reason for opposing the Mormon Church was summed up in that. REGARDLESS of when the alleged "first vision" (whatever version of it that might be) was published.

So, yeah, it's kind of applicable.

Applicable that orthodoxy struck the first blow. Yes.

[Bill the Cat]

Applicable that orthodoxy struck the first blow. Yes.

Depends on what you mean by "struck a blow". The newspapers at the time explain that Joseph and his followers were calling damnation to anyone who didn't follow them...

[OtherCheek]

Depends on what you mean by "struck a blow". The newspapers at the time explain that Joseph and his followers were calling damnation to anyone who didn't follow them...

Let's see some links.

What if Jesus and Christianity could be shown to have struck the first blow 2000 years ago. Would it really matter?

[Sparko]

Well, since you've been kicked so hard in the one cheek, why not offer the other one so we can match it?

showing your other cheeks again, OC?

Usually you keep them covered by your pants.

[Cow Poke]

Applicable that orthodoxy struck the first blow. Yes.

Orthodoxy, OC? Were Smith's own former followers "orthodox"? Where the newspapers and government leaders necessarily "orthodox"? Would you care to support this claim that "orthodoxy" struck the first blow?

[Sparko]

Let's see some links.

What if Jesus and Christianity could be shown to have struck the first blow 2000 years ago. Would it really matter?

they did actually. Paul said:

Galatians 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel — 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Sounds like he was talking about Joseph Smith directly!

[Bill the Cat]

Let's see some links.

http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/NE/miscne01.htm

[nrajeff]

eh?

Well, some of you are complaining that "Joe STARTED it!" so if it's really true that he struck first, I was just wondering how long you're going to hold a grudge about it.

I owe neither Smith nor you "my other cheek"

Aren't you required...er, "out of gratitude" because you :"know" that you already have eternal life---to obey Jesus' commandment to forgive those who hit you first? After all, "an eye for an eye" was part of those dreaded "works of the Law" that you're supposed to rail AGAINST, right?

What interests me is that plenty of Christians had been saying that Christendom had lost its way, become paganized, was in a state of apostasy, etc.---before Joe Smith said it, and you seem to have somehow been able to "forgive and forget" in THEIR case.

Could there be a double standard in that?

[nrajeff]

Depends on what you mean by "struck a blow". The newspapers at the time explain that Joseph and his followers were calling damnation to anyone who didn't follow them...

....like Martin Luther sort of did when he struck the first blow against his own Catholic church? Seems they didn't turn the other cheek, either....they might be like the Evangelicals who are still landing second, third, and hundredth blows in retaliation to Joe Smith's first blow of long ago....

[Bill the Cat]

....like Martin Luther sort of did when he struck the first blow against his own Catholic church? Seems they didn't turn the other cheek, either....they might be like the Evangelicals who are still landing second, third, and hundredth blows in retaliation to Joe Smith's first blow of long ago....

One must always fight against false doctrines, no matter how many blows it takes.

[Sparko]

Well, some of you are complaining that "Joe STARTED it!" so if it's really true that he struck first, I was just wondering how long you're going to hold a grudge about it.


Aren't you required...er, "out of gratitude" because you :"know" that you already have eternal life---to obey Jesus' commandment to forgive those who hit you first? After all, "an eye for an eye" was part of those dreaded "works of the Law" that you're supposed to rail AGAINST, right?

What interests me is that plenty of Christians had been saying that Christendom had lost its way, become paganized, was in a state of apostasy, etc.---before Joe Smith said it, and you seem to have somehow been able to "forgive and forget" in THEIR case.

Could there be a double standard in that?

Doesn't the person who offended you have to ask for forgiveness first? I thought that was what repentance was all about?

Smith never struck a personal blow against me, Jeff. He struck a blow against Christianity, and Jesus tells us to defend our faith and keep out the wolves such as Smith.

[nrajeff]

Doesn't the person who offended you have to ask for forgiveness first?

Not according to Jesus, and I thought you claimed to follow what He says about stuff.
The Jesus of "the Bible" wants His disciples to forgive, period. No conditions.

I thought that was what repentance was all about?

Seems you need some remedial basics: (At least in LDS doctrine) a person who wants FORGIVENESS needs to repent. But if someone has sinned against YOU, you need to forgive him whether he repents or not. If you don't, then your sin (of refusing to forgive, having an unforgiving character) is a GREATER sin that the sin that the person committed against you. That's a fundamental tenet of Christianity, at least that is my understanding.

Smith never struck a personal blow against me, Jeff. He struck a blow against Christianity

No! YOU claimed that Smith had attacked YOUR CHURCH. Not "Christianity."

And, if we are interested in accuracy, his actual claim was that JESUS had criticized what Christendom had BECOME. Smith didn't feel inclined to disagree with Jesus. Plus, Christians before Smith had said worse things about what Christendom had become--and they didn't even claim that Jesus had said it to them. They claimed it was their own position. Why aren't you hitting back at all those Christians? Consistency is a virtue.

]and Jesus tells us to defend our faith and keep out the wolves such as Smith.

But you are in no position to reliably even tell who is wolf. In fact, that's what got Christendom into trouble in the first place--it became unable to know which of the teachers in its midst were the good guys and which were the wolves. So the wolves ran the ball for some major yardage.