No True Scotsman (Christian) Fallacy

[pancreasman]

I think we can be quite superficial here comparing vastly different historical periods and projecting our own enlightened modern views of morality onto cultures in which they would have been foreign.

Yes, I know that modern (especially protestant) Christianity thinks that the Bible is clear on certain standards of behaviour, but we need to remember that each culture tends to have its own emphases and priorities even within interpreting scripture. There have been periods in the past where Christianity was inexorably linked to the state. The state was considered a manifestation of God's order on earth (the divine right of kings). Because of this, heresy, real or imagined, was a crime against the state and society comparable to our view of treason. This moral imperative of stamping out threats to the good order of society and its supposed divine support took a greater priority with authorities than personal forgiveness.

I'm simply saying it is a complex situation and we should not rush to judgement of other people who might behave as Christians differently to you.

[shunyadragon]

I do not believe the 'No True Scotsman' Fallacy can be used a dodge for the problems in history of Christianity and Islam dealing with issues like Masturbation, Homosexuality, and Evolution. I believe there is a consistent pattern of problems in Christianity and Islam. It is not a generalization of ALL Christians and Muslims are responsible for the problem, but the evidence supports that the problems are very real within Christianity and Islam, because of the nature of the ancient world view, scripture, and Natural Law.

[Cerebrum123]

You don't have to argue with Shuny. I can understand the temptation, but I find his writing very annoying to read because he tends to be obtuse and vague. I ignore him.

I had to ignore him too. He is very arrogant, and thinks that everyone other than himself is either stupid, biased, or some other such nonsense he can come up with.

[seer]

I do not believe the 'No True Scotsman' Fallacy can be used a dodge for the problems in history of Christianity and Islam dealing with issues like Masturbation, Homosexuality, and Evolution. I believe there is a consistent pattern of problems in Christianity and Islam. It is not a generalization of ALL Christians and Muslims are responsible for the problem, but the evidence supports that the problems are very real within Christianity and Islam, because of the nature of the ancient world view, scripture, and Natural Law.

So? There are problems with all human institutions. Religious or otherwise. So a minority of "christians" did wicked things - and? How old is your faith Shuny? 150 years? When your faith is two thousand years old then come and school us. There is NOTHNG inherent in N.T. teaching that would lead to violence - period...

[Jedidiah]

So? There are problems with all human institutions. Religious or otherwise. So a minority of "christians" did wicked things - and? How old is your faith Shuny? 150 years? When your faith is two thousand years old then come and school us. There is NOTHNG inherent in N.T. teaching that would lead to violence - period...

This is your opportunity to put into practice the advice you have gotten. Try it.

[shunyadragon]

So? There are problems with all human institutions. Religious or otherwise. So a minority of "christians" did wicked things - and? How old is your faith Shuny? 150 years? When your faith is two thousand years old then come and school us. There is NOTHNG inherent in N.T. teaching that would lead to violence - period...

There is the Book of Revelation, which can and has been interpreted in this modus, and the OT also supports this well. Irregardless of whether you feel the Christians are obligated to OT Law or not is not a complete answer. Most Christians consider the OT as God's commands for humanity, and thus they apply it where and when they chose to in history.

This a common problem of Christians generalize about Islam, but I do not generalize that ALL Christians, nor ALL Muslims are responsible, but it is a problem of Christianity and Islam in history, because they actually appeal to a similar justification and reasoning for their actions.

[seer]

This is your opportunity to put into practice the advice you have gotten. Try it.

I can't, it's like a drug... : (

[seer]

There is the Book of Revelation, which can and has been interpreted in this modus, and the OT also supports this well. Irregardless of whether you feel the Christians are obligated to OT Law or not is not a complete answer. Most Christians consider the OT as God's commands for humanity, and thus they apply it where and when they chose to in history.

Nonsense, Revelation gives no permission or mandate for Christians to harm anyone. And Christians do not follow Mosaic law, period. Besides Shuny your religion teaches that Moses was a prophet of God - so he belongs to you as much as to us. And you believe that Muhammad was also in this prophetic line - we don't - so he belongs to you - not us.

This a common problem of Christians generalize about Islam, but I do not generalize that ALL Christians, nor ALL Muslims are responsible, but it is a problem of Christianity and Islam in history, because they actually appeal to a similar justification and reasoning for their actions.

When an institutions, religious or otherwise, has had literally billions of adherents over centuries there are bound to be problems. And if your faith ever reaches those numbers or lasts that long they will have their problems too. Everything that man does it flawed...

[seer]

I think we can be quite superficial here comparing vastly different historical periods and projecting our own enlightened modern views of morality onto cultures in which they would have been foreign.

Well one would question whether a society that kills millions of its unborn children is enlightened.

Yes, I know that modern (especially protestant) Christianity thinks that the Bible is clear on certain standards of behaviour, but we need to remember that each culture tends to have its own emphases and priorities even within interpreting scripture.

No, scripture is pretty clear. But what one may emphasize can be in response to cultural changes.

There have been periods in the past where Christianity was inexorably linked to the state. The state was considered a manifestation of God's order on earth (the divine right of kings). Because of this, heresy, real or imagined, was a crime against the state and society comparable to our view of treason. This moral imperative of stamping out threats to the good order of society and its supposed divine support took a greater priority with authorities than personal forgiveness.

When the State and the Christian faith get into bed I never fear for the state - I fear for the religion.

[Cerebrum123]

Nonsense, Revelation gives no permission or mandate for Christians to harm anyone. And Christians do not follow Mosaic law, period. Besides Shuny your religion teaches that Moses was a prophet of God - so he belongs to you as much as to us. And you believe that Muhammad was also in this prophetic line - we don't - so he belongs to you - not us.



When an institutions, religious or otherwise, has had literally billions of adherents over centuries there are bound to be problems. And if your faith ever reaches those numbers or lasts that long they will have their problems too. Everything that man does it flawed...

One thing that shuny here doesn't seem to realize is that Mohammed actually did condone, and engage in such violence, and told his followers to spread by the sword the faith he preached. You don't find Jesus doing this, and even Moses didn't spread OT law to other nations through warfare. There is is no commandment in the Bible to spread either Judaism or Christianity through warfare, but the Quran and ahadith do have this built in, and it has been followed for a long time. shuny just doesn't understand that while the bible does NOT advocate this kind of thing, but the Quran does. This is the major difference between Judeo-Christian world, and Islam, but since Baha'i have accepted Mohammed as a prophet, they don't like to hear about how much of a monster he was.

[seer]

One thing that shuny here doesn't seem to realize is that Mohammed actually did condone, and engage in such violence, and told his followers to spread by the sword the faith he preached. You don't find Jesus doing this, and even Moses didn't spread OT law to other nations through warfare. There is is no commandment in the Bible to spread either Judaism or Christianity through warfare, but the Quran and ahadith do have this built in, and it has been followed for a long time. shuny just doesn't understand that while the bible does NOT advocate this kind of thing, but the Quran does. This is the major difference between Judeo-Christian world, and Islam, but since Baha'i have accepted Mohammed as a prophet, they don't like to hear about how much of a monster he was.

Exactly, they believe he was a prophet of God. So the Baha'is own him...

[shunyadragon]

Exactly, they believe he was a prophet of God. So the Baha'is own him...

Odd statement, because Christians believe Moses is a prophet of God, do they own him?

[shunyadragon]

One thing that shuny here doesn't seem to realize is that Mohammed actually did condone, and engage in such violence, and told his followers to spread by the sword the faith he preached. You don't find Jesus doing this, and even Moses didn't spread OT law to other nations through warfare. There is is no commandment in the Bible to spread either Judaism or Christianity through warfare, but the Quran and ahadith do have this built in, and it has been followed for a long time. shuny just doesn't understand that while the bible does NOT advocate this kind of thing, but the Quran does. This is the major difference between Judeo-Christian world, and Islam, but since Baha'i have accepted Mohammed as a prophet, they don't like to hear about how much of a monster he was.

Christians and Muslims engaged in extensive violence against those that do not believe over the centuries and justified these acts by scriptures. The Koran was the first to offer tolerance to Jews under Islamic rule, something Christianity did not do, but spent hundreds of years trying to ethnically cleanse Jews from all countries under Christian rule.

[Leonhard]

I can't, it's like a drug... : (

I thought you had libertarian free will. What ever happened to that?

[seer]

I thought you had libertarian free will. What ever happened to that?

I'm choosing to ignore it... ; )