We need advice from smart/married people!

[QuantaFille]

Hello and congratulations on your decision to marry. I'm new to this site and this is my first post. I hope it's alright if I put in my two cents worth.

Thanks, and welcome to TWeb!

First, while I remember, I totally agree with advice that another member gave in relation to living together as a newly married couple. If possible, avoid sharing with anyone else. There are enough adjustments to make in those first few years without having the added burden of other people in your place of residence. However, sometimes we do have to make sacrifices to get ahead. Just really think this one through.

If we do end up staying with his mother, hopefully it won't be for long. Just long enough for us to find our own place. I have had to move back in with my parents, and even though I am still single it's been hard enough.

As far as degrees go, I would suggest that it is your fiancee's study that should be the priority and that other matters should accommodate the completion of his degree. If you are able to continue your study then you have the option of doing that in whatever way is available. However, I would certainly recommend that you and your fiancee figure out exactly what direction he will be going in and then work out yours. Scripture tells us that a man should provide for his family, so I believe you would be best to help him achieve that goal.

This is pretty much what we've been doing. As far as income goes, he'll likely make more than I will anyway, so I'd rather see him finish his education first. We'll probably just get by on his salary (he'll be a professor, there isn't a lot of money in that) so he'll cover the necessities. The woman in Proverbs 31 makes clothes and sells them, and makes sure her family has nice things, so I see my income as fulfilling that. If my career ensures that my kids get a good education, and I can put aside money for emergencies, then I'll feel like I'm doing my job. If it gets to where I'm the one putting food on the table, then we'll need to rethink our strategy.

Something you need to consider is that when you have children you may decide to be a full-time-stay-home-mum and/or you may eventually even choose to home school. You may feel a calling or conviction to remain at home. This means you would be out of the work force for a very long time. I know this could sound like a very unlikely event, but it is possible. I know everyone is different, but I guess my point is that when babies come along your plans to return to work could go out the window.

We have already decided that we will absolutely homeschool. If my career choice was one that did not allow me to work from home, rest assured I would have already decided not to go back to school, or would have chosen another career. I firmly believe that a mother's duty is to look after her children. I can set up a workshop at home, and when the kids come along I will put it aside until they are older. My main concern is receiving the proper training in order to be able to bring in more income, rather than having to teach myself. Then again, pretty much everything else I've ever done I've been able to teach myself. My main concern is the debt I would incur versus the potential increase in income.

So, in light of this, I guess you need to weigh up how much benefit you will get from your degree. Are the years of study and college debt worth it? In Australia, we have a system where we only pay back our university debt once we earn over a certain amount of money, so it's not a huge problem if one decides to stay home. I'm not sure how your system works and if you will have to service your debt regardless of your income. If you do, then that is a serious consideration.

Here in the US, you start paying back your education loans six months after graduation, regardless of whether a suitable job has been found. Or any job at all, in fact. I am already paying back the loan I got for my first (and only, so far) year, and I don't even have a job in my career field. This is why I'm worried about the debt. It wasn't a big deal to me when I started my education, because I was preparing for a life as a single person. I was going to get my certificate, get a good job in someone else's workshop, and then set up my own workshop once the school loan had been paid off. I didn't have to worry about supporting a family, either with time or money.

I think you mentioned quite a lengthy period of study for your degree, so it would be useful to look at how old you will be when you finish your degree and at what age you might want to start a family. There are a lot of "ifs" and "buts", but it may help to look at the value of your degree in the long term. For a man who will be working full time for decades, it is definitely worth the time, cost, and lost earning potential in the years of study. But, the reality of a christian woman is that it may not be.

I do know that if he does his degrees, and then I finish school afterwards, and then we start a family within a year or two after that, then we're looking at me being old enough for a pregnancy to be risky. I won't be old enough yet that we won't be able to have any kids at all, of course, but I'd prefer we have kids sooner rather than later.

Do you have christian parents who can guide you on this? Do you have someone from church who would give you Godly counsel? It would be worthwhile seeking their wisdom. And, of course, asking God for wisdom.

Indeed we do. I just wanted to get more people's advice and opinions, since there are quite a few people here older and wiser and more experienced than we are.

These are big decisions and this is a very exciting time in your life! I wish you all the best.

Kind regards,
Lyndell

Thank you so much for your input, it is greatly appreciated.

Just for your info - I'm a home school mum of six children and have been married for 15 years. I was previously a school teacher before having children. Never would have thought I'd have six kids, let alone home school them! All things are possible :-)

I grew up in a family with six kids, and my mum homeschooled us, as well. I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Rational Gaze]

Just for your info - I'm a home school mum of six children and have been married for 15 years.

My Dad had seven brothers and two sisters. True story.

[Jaltus]

Let me give some advice from someone who has a PhD, his wife has a Master's, and we have three kids:

1) Get married first. There is too much temptation out there, not just toward sin, but toward life. Education is important, but Christians always put people first, relationships first.
2) Wait on kids. If you are serious about education, get it all done before you have any kids. We waited (I defended my dissertation and had twins 35 hours later), and it was the right move for a few reasons. First, we were able to build our relationship strongly before allowing kids to enter into it, so our relationship is NOT based on children the way many are nowadays. Second, many of those who started with me finished years and years after me because of their children. I finished my PhD in under 4 years, and some of my friends took 7 or more because they had kids.
3) You will never ever be financially stable, so get used to that.
4) What dream matters more to you, education or marriage? This decision right now will define your relationship. A man is called to put his wife first in all things, so you need to begin thinking like that in your engagement time as well. do remember, though, that putting your spouse first can mean going against that person's wishes if there is a more godly or better option.

[Rational Gaze]

I've been looking into things and in order for Quanta to live in the UK whilst I study my Master's and PhD, she would first need to apply for a Fiancee Visa, which entitles her to stay (but NOT work) in the UK for 6 months. Once we were married, we can then apply for a Husband/Visa, which would entitle her to stay, and more importantly work, in the UK for 2 years. After said time, she is free to stay in the UK indefinitely. I have one more year of my Bachelor's starting this September. I then plan on studying an MA in Jewish History and Culture at the University of Southampton, which would take one year, and then doing a PhD there also, which would take around 4 years full time. After that, we are planning on moving to the US. I talked to my mum, and she said she would happy to accomodate both of us whilst we were staying in the UK together. Since Quanta is from the US, then I assume that would make it easier for the both of us to move there once I have completed my degrees.

[Rational Gaze]

I've been looking at the University of Southampton's courses, and they offer an MRes, which is a Master of Research. It is similar to an MA, except it is more research focused. The dissertation is 30,000 words instead of 20,000, and I have less taught modules: http://www.southampton.ac.uk/humanit...d_culture.page

I was thinking of going for this rather than the MA now.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

I've been looking into things and in order for Quanta to live in the UK whilst I study my Master's and PhD, she would first need to apply for a Fiancee Visa, which entitles her to stay (but NOT work) in the UK for 6 months. Once we were married, we can then apply for a Husband/Visa, which would entitle her to stay, and more importantly work, in the UK for 2 years. After said time, she is free to stay in the UK indefinitely. I have one more year of my Bachelor's starting this September. I then plan on studying an MA in Jewish History and Culture at the University of Southampton, which would take one year, and then doing a PhD there also, which would take around 4 years full time. After that, we are planning on moving to the US. I talked to my mum, and she said she would happy to accomodate both of us whilst we were staying in the UK together. Since Quanta is from the US, then I assume that would make it easier for the both of us to move there once I have completed my degrees.

Any idea where you'll live ultimately? The thing with parents is that there are blessings and curses. We live next door to mine now in my grandmother's old house. There can be benefits in that you do get support from them easier, but there are costs in that you can sometimes have parents overstepping their boundaries. Fortunately, the Princess does get along great with my folks, but we always have to maintain caution.

[Rational Gaze]

Any idea where you'll live ultimately?

Wherever I can get a job. We may end up staying in the UK if I get a good job offer here, and then move to the US later if job opportunities arise.

[Sparko]

Wherever I can get a job. We may end up staying in the UK if I get a good job offer here, and then move to the US later if job opportunities arise.

Just stay away from Canada!!!

[Little Shepherd]

Certain modern hang-ups really annoy me. Yes, there should be clear boundaries, but there's no reason to think that living with RG's mom is going to be some kind of disaster waiting to happen. Quanta's family is big and loud, and she's introverted and likes more quiet. If she has her space and RG's mom isn't all loud and whatnot, it shouldn't be any worse than her other flat-mate experiences. The whole "you gotta be alone" and "the mother-in-law is the devil" things are modern, largely western(and even then not throughout all the west) views that just don't line up with the experiences and practices of the vast majority of civilizations throughout human history.

Live with the mum-in-law. Don't go into it expecting it to be a disaster. And yeah, expect some adjustment and some need for boundary setting. You can always move out later if you really have to, but it will in most likelihood be fine.

Oh, and my vote is for one of the following:

1. Quanta finishes her degree. They get married in 3 years. She moves to England. RG finishes his degrees. Since she'll be finished when they get married, she'll be in the perfect position to start having kids as soon as they're ready since she can do her work from home and at her own pace. They can move back to the States whenever it's convenient.

2. They get married sooner. Quanta moves to England. RG finishes his degrees. They move back to the States when they can. Since you can't always plan for this kind of thing, kids may have appeared by this point. I'm sure Quanta can get the raw skills necessary for her desired profession, but the other benefits of her potential degree(higher asking price for her work, good references, and whatnot) should be seriously considered here. Fitting the degree in may not be feasible at this point depending on their specific situation, too, so there's no guarantee there will even be a choice at this point.

So yeah, I think 1 is better from a purely strategic viewpoint. But I also believe women put off marriage and children for school/work too much already. So I dunno. Both seem fine to me.

[Pilgrim]

Let me give some advice from someone who has a PhD, his wife has a Master's, and we have three kids:

1) Get married first. There is too much temptation out there, not just toward sin, but toward life. Education is important, but Christians always put people first, relationships first.
2) Wait on kids. If you are serious about education, get it all done before you have any kids. We waited (I defended my dissertation and had twins 35 hours later), and it was the right move for a few reasons. First, we were able to build our relationship strongly before allowing kids to enter into it, so our relationship is NOT based on children the way many are nowadays. Second, many of those who started with me finished years and years after me because of their children. I finished my PhD in under 4 years, and some of my friends took 7 or more because they had kids.
3) You will never ever be financially stable, so get used to that.
4) What dream matters more to you, education or marriage? This decision right now will define your relationship. A man is called to put his wife first in all things, so you need to begin thinking like that in your engagement time as well. do remember, though, that putting your spouse first can mean going against that person's wishes if there is a more godly or better option.

That is some sound advice right there. Listen to him.

[QuantaFille]

Certain modern hang-ups really annoy me. Yes, there should be clear boundaries, but there's no reason to think that living with RG's mom is going to be some kind of disaster waiting to happen. Quanta's family is big and loud, and she's introverted and likes more quiet. If she has her space and RG's mom isn't all loud and whatnot, it shouldn't be any worse than her other flat-mate experiences. The whole "you gotta be alone" and "the mother-in-law is the devil" things are modern, largely western(and even then not throughout all the west) views that just don't line up with the experiences and practices of the vast majority of civilizations throughout human history.

Live with the mum-in-law. Don't go into it expecting it to be a disaster. And yeah, expect some adjustment and some need for boundary setting. You can always move out later if you really have to, but it will in most likelihood be fine.

For the record, I never said that living with his mother would be a disaster, or that she was a devil. Having to live with one's parents/in-laws as a married adult is never the ideal situation. It's not a matter of personalities clashing, it's a matter of having to get used to living with each other as a married couple and then having other family members thrown in as well. Even if a couple is established in their relationship already, it's still not a good idea. RG and I both value our time alone, and that's even time away from people we normally like. I also can't help but note that it's the married people here who've been in that situation who are advising against it.

In my own experience, and this is probably a worst-case scenario, it usually ends badly. When my father retired from the Air Force, I was 9 years old and had four younger siblings already. We lived in Georgia at the time, but Mum's immediate family were all in Texas. We decided to move to Texas to be close to them, and so we temporarily moved in with Mum's parents until we could find a place to live. We were there for 6 months, and it was so terrible we ended up moving back to Georgia. Years later, Mum explained that part of the reason it was so bad was because she was trying to be a mother and a wife and a daughter, trying to please everybody, and it was just too stressful. She and her parents had vastly different ideas about how to raise us, so there was some major conflict there, but even so I've never heard of a long-term stay with one's parents as a married adult working out well.

Oh, and my vote is for one of the following:

1. Quanta finishes her degree. They get married in 3 years. She moves to England. RG finishes his degrees. Since she'll be finished when they get married, she'll be in the perfect position to start having kids as soon as they're ready since she can do her work from home and at her own pace. They can move back to the States whenever it's convenient.

2. They get married sooner. Quanta moves to England. RG finishes his degrees. They move back to the States when they can. Since you can't always plan for this kind of thing, kids may have appeared by this point. I'm sure Quanta can get the raw skills necessary for her desired profession, but the other benefits of her potential degree(higher asking price for her work, good references, and whatnot) should be seriously considered here. Fitting the degree in may not be feasible at this point depending on their specific situation, too, so there's no guarantee there will even be a choice at this point.

So yeah, I think 1 is better from a purely strategic viewpoint. But I also believe women put off marriage and children for school/work too much already. So I dunno. Both seem fine to me.

Yes. Those are the two options we're discussing. I'm glad you've been paying attention.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Certain modern hang-ups really annoy me. Yes, there should be clear boundaries, but there's no reason to think that living with RG's mom is going to be some kind of disaster waiting to happen. Quanta's family is big and loud, and she's introverted and likes more quiet. If she has her space and RG's mom isn't all loud and whatnot, it shouldn't be any worse than her other flat-mate experiences. The whole "you gotta be alone" and "the mother-in-law is the devil" things are modern, largely western(and even then not throughout all the west) views that just don't line up with the experiences and practices of the vast majority of civilizations throughout human history.

Live with the mum-in-law. Don't go into it expecting it to be a disaster. And yeah, expect some adjustment and some need for boundary setting. You can always move out later if you really have to, but it will in most likelihood be fine.

Oh, and my vote is for one of the following:

1. Quanta finishes her degree. They get married in 3 years. She moves to England. RG finishes his degrees. Since she'll be finished when they get married, she'll be in the perfect position to start having kids as soon as they're ready since she can do her work from home and at her own pace. They can move back to the States whenever it's convenient.

2. They get married sooner. Quanta moves to England. RG finishes his degrees. They move back to the States when they can. Since you can't always plan for this kind of thing, kids may have appeared by this point. I'm sure Quanta can get the raw skills necessary for her desired profession, but the other benefits of her potential degree(higher asking price for her work, good references, and whatnot) should be seriously considered here. Fitting the degree in may not be feasible at this point depending on their specific situation, too, so there's no guarantee there will even be a choice at this point.

So yeah, I think 1 is better from a purely strategic viewpoint. But I also believe women put off marriage and children for school/work too much already. So I dunno. Both seem fine to me.

LS. Really, I was not prophesying the future but giving a word of advice. Right now, we live next door to my parents. There are benefits. There are costs. I want Quanta and RG to be as aware as they can of what is happening. I also agree with Quanta. They will want some time alone. I'd also advise her and RG to realize that both sets of parents are to offer input and no one set is to be dominant and to make sure one does not often run to parents. Parents are great advisors. I would not have them be judges.

[Little Shepherd]

For the record, I never said that living with his mother would be a disaster, or that she was a devil.

I know that. It's hyperbole, and the mentioning of common tropes that tend to come up in this type of discussion. I was poking fun at(well, more like mocking) the way so many people have bought into the "gotta live alone; extended family households are to be avoided" bandwagon. Like I said, it's an almost entirely modern and largely western thing.

Having to live with one's parents/in-laws as a married adult is never the ideal situation. It's not a matter of personalities clashing, it's a matter of having to get used to living with each other as a married couple and then having other family members thrown in as well. Even if a couple is established in their relationship already, it's still not a good idea. RG and I both value our time alone, and that's even time away from people we normally like. I also can't help but note that it's the married people here who've been in that situation who are advising against it.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree here, I guess. I don't see what having alone time has to do with anything; that would be part of setting the boundaries. And you have some married people who had bad experiences. It happens. It's probably going to happen if you go into the thing with typical modern/western ideas about how things should be. There's a lot of societal baggage there, and I think a lot of it is junk.

In my own experience, and this is probably a worst-case scenario, it usually ends badly.

I'm not going to repeat any of the many things you've told me, as I assume they were in confidence, but you don't need me to tell you that your situation isn't normal. There are very clear reasons why your current situation is so stressful for you. I certainly wouldn't suggest living with your parents once you're married, but not because I think it's a bad idea in general. I don't know much at all about RG's parents, so it really depends on their personalities, temperaments, stuff like that. I just don't think you should dismiss living with your in-laws as a bad idea prima facie.

When my father retired from the Air Force, I was 9 years old and had four younger siblings already. We lived in Georgia at the time, but Mum's immediate family were all in Texas. We decided to move to Texas to be close to them, and so we temporarily moved in with Mum's parents until we could find a place to live. We were there for 6 months, and it was so terrible we ended up moving back to Georgia. Years later, Mum explained that part of the reason it was so bad was because she was trying to be a mother and a wife and a daughter, trying to please everybody, and it was just too stressful. She and her parents had vastly different ideas about how to raise us, so there was some major conflict there, but even so I've never heard of a long-term stay with one's parents as a married adult working out well.

I haven't heard of many people giving it a try, and the ones who do are often forced into it by outside situations, so that's just a whole lot of additional stress to be bringing into the mix. I think there's a world of difference between that and actually choosing to enter into such a living situation without it being entirely necessary.

Yes. Those are the two options we're discussing. I'm glad you've been paying attention.

Yeah, I thought so. Just letting you know I'll support you as best I can with whichever you choose.

[williamson8]

My Dad had seven brothers and two sisters. True story.

Not sure how to take that comment

[QuantaFille]

I know that. It's hyperbole, and the mentioning of common tropes that tend to come up in this type of discussion. I was poking fun at(well, more like mocking) the way so many people have bought into the "gotta live alone; extended family households are to be avoided" bandwagon. Like I said, it's an almost entirely modern and largely western thing.

It's hard to tell if you're mocking when there's no tone of voice.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree here, I guess. I don't see what having alone time has to do with anything; that would be part of setting the boundaries. And you have some married people who had bad experiences. It happens. It's probably going to happen if you go into the thing with typical modern/western ideas about how things should be. There's a lot of societal baggage there, and I think a lot of it is junk.

I was merely pointing out that it was the married people in this thread advising against it, and I've seen first-hand how it can turn out.

I'm not going to repeat any of the many things you've told me, as I assume they were in confidence, but you don't need me to tell you that your situation isn't normal. There are very clear reasons why your current situation is so stressful for you. I certainly wouldn't suggest living with your parents once you're married, but not because I think it's a bad idea in general. I don't know much at all about RG's parents, so it really depends on their personalities, temperaments, stuff like that. I just don't think you should dismiss living with your in-laws as a bad idea prima facie.

You don't have to tell me twice not to live with my parents, lol...
But I would also like to point out that I didn't dismiss the idea entirely, as staying with his mum would be our best option starting out. We'll see how it goes from there.

I haven't heard of many people giving it a try, and the ones who do are often forced into it by outside situations, so that's just a whole lot of additional stress to be bringing into the mix. I think there's a world of difference between that and actually choosing to enter into such a living situation without it being entirely necessary.

We are basically being forced into it. Not that I am dreading it, or that I feel it is the worst possible option, just that it is really our best option right now. We aren't moving in with her because we all want to live together, but because we need a roof over our heads and RG already has a room there that his mum has agreed to let us stay in. Hopefully we will all get along well and conflicts will be minimal. If we're making enough money, we can move into our own place. It would be nice having a kitchen all to myself for once.

Yeah, I thought so. Just letting you know I'll support you as best I can with whichever you choose.

Thanks. That means a lot to me.