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Thread: What Jesus Really Meant (IMO)

  1. #11
    Theologyweb's Official Grandfather Jedidiah's Avatar
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    This may seem radical, but what if Jesus meant exactly what He said?
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

  2. #12
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidsun View Post
    Discussion in relation to any aspect of what follows is invited and very welcome:

    From his saying “This is my body” when breaking bread and “This is my blood” when pouring wine at what has since been referenced as The Last Supper with his disciples (see Matthew 26), it is clear that Jesus rationally grasped as well as mystically (that is, transpersonally) identified with the Oneness of Creation. If what he meant to communicate by way of such sayings had been truly apprehended, such utterances may indeed have been**foundational in establishing an ecologically sane, holistically Life-augmentative civilization.
    Deh. Were the quote to be considered in its entirety, there would be no way to make the claim. Considering half a quote (which is to say, taking it out of context), this and a host of other quotes can be wrested.

    That was not to be the case, however. Because the beliefs of most if not all of those around him at the time were hypnotically rooted in projections that God (to wit, the progenitive Source and Sustainer of Life) was a singular, supremely dictatorial ruler who had especially favored mankind by ‘giving’ them ‘dominion’ over all other earthly creatures (see Genesis 1:26-28), analogous to the way kings of old ‘granted’ lords of old the right to govern less powerful folk living in their territories (as long as said lords remained loyally subservient in relation to said kings, of course), the people around him simply did not register and so could not even begin to comprehend the implications of the fact that such sayings by Jesus actually referenced the matrixial interconnectedness and interdependency of all being.
    The people who made such claims about God were, by and large, prophets. I'll take such claims as being more adequate than I will the claims of people who aren't prophesying.

    About his Sonship:

    Making matters worse, as they then also construed his references to being “the Son of God” literally, instead of ‘remembering’ the factuality of above-referenced Oneness of Being as they were directed to (in Luke 22), when would-be followers subsequently gathered together for a ceremonial meal of bread and wine (which observance later became ritualized as The Sacrament of Holy Communion), they just imagined and believed the bread and wine to be miraculously transformed (literally transubstantiated!) into the flesh and blood of Jesus himself* who they idolized and proceeded to worship and pledge allegiance to as the “King of kings and Lord of lords” (I Timothy 6:15‑16) heir of said ‘supreme’ God.

    [*Though such belief and practice is generally, presently at least, simply accepted without significant thought, question or discussion as ‘normal’, it generated quite a bit of controversy when the movement now known as ‘Christianity’ was just getting started as a result of its connoting a kind of cannibalism.
    Such was the presumption of outsiders. The founding apostles made no such claim; nor did disciples generally.

    Presumably, what is called ‘magical thinking’ (nowadays) led members of the movement to suppose that such ingestion would result in their physically ‘absorbing’ Jesus’ spiritual characteristics and thereby attain personal ‘communion’ with him.
    Hardly. The process of absorption was not taught, and the personal communion with Christ is predicated upon obedience.

    What anyone thinks Jesus really meant when he used such and related phrases and why he or she imagines he chose to speak of God as ‘the Father’ and himself as ‘the Son’ (of said Father) will, of course, depend on his or her personal apprehension and understanding of metaphysical realities and ‘sense’ of what the mind-and-heart sets of the people around Jesus were like at the time. My own conclusions in this regard, which I proffer for consideration and contemplation, are that he used ‘the Father’ to reference the progenitive Source (hence, ‘the Creator’) of all existential being, and ‘the Son’ to reference the totality of said Creator’s Creation (d/b/a Creativity), in other words the Entity of Life as It exists and continues to express Itself in Being.
    Jesus himself made it clear that what he said was what he meant. His relationship to the father was that of a loyal and obedient son.
    Last edited by tabibito; 07-17-2017 at 06:37 AM.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedidiah View Post
    This may seem radical, but what if Jesus meant exactly what He said?
    there'd be no money in that.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  4. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  5. #14
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedidiah View Post
    This may seem radical, but what if Jesus meant exactly what He said?
    unpossible!! He has to have secret meanings that only the specially blessed can understand!!! That way they can know they are the chosen ones and God likes them better than everyone else. duh.

  6. Amen Bill the Cat, Jedidiah, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
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    Undergraduate davidsun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    When you have enough posts (20-25 IIRC) you can have a signature where you can put a link to your blog.
    Thanks for the info. Still a newbie learning the ropes.

  8. #16
    Undergraduate davidsun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedidiah View Post
    This may seem radical, but what if Jesus meant exactly what He said?
    Exactly! The thing of it is that he spoke using metaphors - as, if and when I say "I am doing 'great'" it doesn't mean I am doing 'big' things! Hence the need for intelligence to be capable of more than 'simple' literal interpretations. Of course, if you think that, "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" for instance really means that Jesus himself will appear in the sky and orbit the earth," that's your choice. Towards the end of the chapter, which I haven't yet gotten around to sharing, I say: "Jesus’ prescient depiction of the next such ‘coming’ event, wherein those who are prepared to do so soulfully ‘wake up’ to the Whole Truth and therefore enter into and thereafter continue to consciously live in communion with the Totality of Life while others ‘fall’ by the wayside and get recyled (so to speak), to wit: “As the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. … they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Matthew 24:27-30) [IMO] does not mean that he will then literally flash across the sky and be seen everywhere as he ‘gloriously’ orbits the planet in person. People who are emotionally invested in worshiping Jesus himself as a super-magical genie kind of God will undoubtedly regard the explanation that follows as being unacceptably heretical, but assuming you are not one such – why would you still be engaged in exploring this thesis otherwise? –let me submit that the above-quoted statement only makes real sense [u]if[/i] one interprets it metaphorically, with “heaven” being understood as referencing the realm of consciousness and (so) “the clouds” as referencing the particularities of ideological constellations, or philosophies, within it." I go on to discuss everything referenced in the quote from there.

    Stay tuned: Beside this, there are plenty of other similar examples in this regard which I discuss in the chapter.
    Last edited by davidsun; 07-17-2017 at 04:23 PM.

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    Undergraduate davidsun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Deh. Were the quote [about "This my blood" etc.] to be considered in its entirety, there would be no way to make the claim. Considering half a quote (which is to say, taking it out of context), this and a host of other quotes can be wrested.
    Please do present and discuss your interpretation of "the quote" in its entirety, so I may know what you are talking about.

    I register the rest of your claims to understand the reality pertaining to Jesus, prophets, etc. I appreciate your sharing your contrasting views here. I obviously do not agree with them, however, as I present alternate views which I personally believe are more reality-oriented.
    Last edited by davidsun; 07-17-2017 at 04:34 PM.

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    Undergraduate davidsun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    there'd be no money in that.
    You seem to be implying that people who think differently than you do are 'in it' for the 'money'? What if they aren't ? I certainly am not! Have you considered the implications of that?

  11. #19
    Undergraduate davidsun's Avatar
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    You reply to "This may seem radical, but what if Jesus meant exactly what He said?" Sparko, to wit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    unpossible!! He has to have secret meanings that only the specially blessed can understand!!! That way they can know they are the chosen ones and God likes them better than everyone else. duh.
    Reminded me of parable I rephrased on the books I wrote, to wit:

    "There is an excellent Hindu parable about a great seer who, out of the goodness of his heart, informed birds of all species about a terrible bird-catcher and warned them to beware because, sooner or later, the bird-catcher was bound to try and catch them. Not really up to the task of keeping close track of and publicly declaring the many clever ways in which the bird-catcher dis*guised himself, fooling themselves and others that they were adequately doing their duty, the parrots in the group diligently ‘served’ to pass on the warning, “Watch out for the bird-catcher,” from generation to generation. The wily bird-catcher found this quite to his liking since all he had to do was set up his nets and yell “I see the bird-catcher coming!” while pointing away from them. Birds galore would then fly right into his trap. Needless to say, instead of preying upon the parrots themselves, the bird-catcher would place those he caught in prominence positions to make sure that other birds would hear their ‘message’."

    The 'news', presenting supposed facts, sure gets convoluted!

  12. #20
    Undergraduate davidsun's Avatar
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    Thanking everyone for their responses, and picking up at the bottom of and continuing the text of my treatise (from post #8):

    What anyone thinks Jesus really meant when he used such and related phrases and why he or she imagines he chose to speak of God as ‘the Father’ and himself as ‘the Son’ (of said Father) will, of course, depend on his or her personal apprehension and understanding of metaphysical realities and ‘sense’ of what the mind-and-heart sets of the people around Jesus were like at the time. My own conclusions in this regard, which I proffer for consideration and contemplation, are that he used ‘the Father’ to reference the progenitive Source (hence, ‘the Creator’) of all existential being, and ‘the Son’ to reference the totality of said Creator’s Creation (d/b/a Creativity), in other words the Entity of Life as It exists and continues to express Itself in Being.

    Why did he choose to do so? I think because the people around him were much more likely to meaningfully and emotionally relate to what such Father and Son ‘figures’ symbolically represented and, consequently, pragmatically understand the nature of the relationship between said existential realities to functionally be as a result of having personally experienced parents and the blessings as well as the vicissitudes of being familial offspring themselves, more so at least than if he had referenced and spoken about such realities in abstract philosophical terms.

    Just imagine the silently questioning, “What the heck is this guy talking about?” blank stares that would be on the faces of people in a (hypothetical) movie crowd-scene wherein Deepak Chopra (one of today’s preeminent metaphysicians), after being science-fictionally transported back to Jesus’ time and setting, verbalized the same sorts of things that folks presently throng around him to hear: “Pure consciousness is your ground state and it is a field of infinite possibilities!” and “The field is organizing everything in creation: the movement of galaxies, the movement of stars, the rotation of the earth, the cycles of the seasons, the biological rhythms of our bodies, birds migrating at the right season to the right place, fish returning to their spawning grounds, the biological rhythms of nature as found in flowers, vegetation, and animals. It is literally a field of infinite organizing power. It can do an infinite number of things all at the same time and then correlate them with each other;” for instance.

    And contrast this with what you imagine the people who were actually there (around Jesus) then must have thought and felt on hearing him preach things like: “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?” (Matthew 7:7-11)

    Even in today’s world, I submit, those who haven’t intelligently grasped the implications of the postulates and research findings of Quantum Physics to the degree necessary to meaningfully comprehend the way in which such particle-wave, vibrating matter-energy concept based reality-paradigm ‘explains’ why and how and things ‘manifest’ – and, because only a small fraction of our population is capable of appreciating such abstractions, this references most folks on the planet at present – are much more likely to mentally and emotionally ‘groove’ with and consequently behaviorally operate in a positively functional, holistically co-relative manner using Jesus’ archetypal parent↔offspring schemata.

    Holistically co-relative insofar as they may personally be so oriented and inclined, that is. As I’m sure you know, the choices people make tend to be unsalutary and counterproductive to whatever degree their thoughts and emotions continue, as a result of conditioning and habituation, to stem from immediate personal-gratification seeking selfishness. This applies, to one degree or another, to every soul that is still in the process of maturing (spiritually speaking), which pretty much references everyone born on the planet, while still biologically young at least, because souls that have already matured, or ‘ripened’, to the point of becoming ‘perfectly’ (so to speak) holistic really have nothing more to learn and developmentally accomplish by way of incarnating as a personal-self locus in the context of a world comprised of sensorially separate nodes of Life, such as ours – except perhaps in exceptional cases, to munificently articulate the range of choices at hand and alert audiences to the consequences thereof as well as, by leading exemplary lives in said regards themselves, to catalytically spark the maturational ‘fruition’ of others at critical, ‘make or break’ junctures in history wherein those involved must either participatorily move ‘forward’ (in the context of Life’s dynamically evolutionary stream) by choosing to transcending selfish instincts and becoming more integrally related to others or spiritually regress and possibly even disintegrate (i.e. completely lose soulful coherency in relation to Life) if they ‘fail’ to do so.

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