I Don't Know How to Love

[The Remonstrant]

I Don't Know How to Love

Well, I might. But not so easily. I don't generally feel kindly toward people. I generally feel quite poorly toward my family (understatement of the year). I tend to notice my flaws and even the flaws more than whatever might be "good" or "right".

I can't ever really recall feeling loved by God. And I can't recall genuinely ever feeling love toward him, though I've cried out to him during my most difficult and trying times. And what is love? Just a sentimental feeling? No, how could love be reduced to that? Definitions are important, aren't they? So biblically, what would love be? God sending his Son to die for us surely would epitomize love wouldn't it? Definitive sacrificial action. But surely aren't we to suppose God loves in a deep and feeling way also (unless we were to adhere to strong divine impassibility)?

What does love for God look like? Feel like? What is love for God? Keeping his commandments? What commandments? In the New Testament, aren't the primary commandments we're to "keep" or obey are (1) loving God with everything we have (2) and others? Surely one may attempt to "keep" divine precepts apart from genuinely loving God. One may refrain from fornication and even strive mightily against lustful thoughts, for example, and yet not feel an ounce of affection for God.

I know God is tremendous and (figuratively speaking) huge, but day in and out, it doesn't seem a reality. It's life under the sun. Futility. The cycle of toil, sin, injustice and death. God's love is tremendous. But have you experienced it? Is it a reality for you? Or do you just pretend? Love ought not be reduced only to feelings, but how could it be less? Imagine entering into marriage with no feelings of love toward your spouse. How horrible. Should the question be raised: Are you certain you are a genuine believer in Christ if you do not really love him? But aren't are actions what proves our love for Christ?

I wonder what love for God is all about and what it is to feel God's love genuinely without trying to conjure something up, working oneself into a religious fervor. But perhaps prior to all this is repentance and faith, as being declared righteous before God is by faith. We are not "justified by love". Yet love indeed is important. We are to love God and others -- especially the community or household of faith (the church). But I wouldn't know where to begin with that honestly (as pathetic as all this sounds).

[Ladybug823]

You are right love is not reduced to mere sentiment and feelings. Love is a conscious choice. There are times when I don't "feel the love" for my fiance but what makes it love is not that I'm not feeling the love, but that I choose to give myself to him when I don't feel like it. I may be boiling mad but I still see that he is very tired and needs something to eat and drink so I get it for him anyway. The same goes for any love I believe. Some days we don't "feel" Gods presence but we know he is worth giving our all to so we do it anyway. The "love" may not seem real but since we know it is we continue to act in a godly manner until we see something or feel something that makes us realize how real it is, and how we have to continue to work through the hard times and the times we feel like he just isn't there, so we experience real moments like that.

Learning to love when the feeling isn't there is very important because it allows us to love our enemies and those we hate. It also allows us to always love those we do love even when it isn't mushy gushy feelings. It also allows us to learn what God's love is like, Because his love is constant no matter what. He cares for us and lets us discover these things on our own so that we know what it is that he does for us.

[princesa]

I Don't Know How to Love

Well, I might. But not so easily. I don't generally feel kindly toward people. I generally feel quite poorly toward my family (understatement of the year). I tend to notice my flaws and even the flaws more than whatever might be "good" or "right".

I can't ever really recall feeling loved by God. And I can't recall genuinely ever feeling love toward him, though I've cried out to him during my most difficult and trying times. And what is love? Just a sentimental feeling? No, how could love be reduced to that? Definitions are important, aren't they? So biblically, what would love be? God sending his Son to die for us surely would epitomize love wouldn't it? Definitive sacrificial action. But surely aren't we to suppose God loves in a deep and feeling way also (unless we were to adhere to strong divine impassibility)?

What does love for God look like? Feel like? What is love for God? Keeping his commandments? What commandments? In the New Testament, aren't the primary commandments we're to "keep" or obey are (1) loving God with everything we have (2) and others? Surely one may attempt to "keep" divine precepts apart from genuinely loving God. One may refrain from fornication and even strive mightily against lustful thoughts, for example, and yet not feel an ounce of affection for God.

I know God is tremendous and (figuratively speaking) huge, but day in and out, it doesn't seem a reality. It's life under the sun. Futility. The cycle of toil, sin, injustice and death. God's love is tremendous. But have you experienced it? Is it a reality for you? Or do you just pretend? Love ought not be reduced only to feelings, but how could it be less? Imagine entering into marriage with no feelings of love toward your spouse. How horrible. Should the question be raised: Are you certain you are a genuine believer in Christ if you do not really love him? But aren't are actions what proves our love for Christ?

I wonder what love for God is all about and what it is to feel God's love genuinely without trying to conjure something up, working oneself into a religious fervor. But perhaps prior to all this is repentance and faith, as being declared righteous before God is by faith. We are not "justified by love". Yet love indeed is important. We are to love God and others -- especially the community or household of faith (the church). But I wouldn't know where to begin with that honestly (as pathetic as all this sounds).

Your honesty is not pathetic. Your post reflects many of my own sentiments.
Your 'life under the sun' 'cycle of toil, sin, injustice and death' comments reminded me of Ecclesiastes, one of my favorite books of the bible. I remember reading it a few years ago and was amazed at how the author was reading my mind in stating that everything was meaningless. (side note: Ecclesiastes is written in the most beautiful and eloquent prose and captured and kept my attention from beginning to end). Since I thought the author and I were SO in sync, I wondered what he finally thought the point of life was after all. His answer:

Ecc: 5:16
As everyone comes, so they depart,
and what do they gain,
since they toil for the wind?
17 All their days they eat in darkness,
with great frustration, affliction and anger.
18 This is what I have observed to be good: that it is appropriate for a person to eat, to drink and to find satisfaction in their toilsome labor under the sun during the few days of life God has given them—for this is their lot. 19 Moreover, when God gives someone wealth and possessions, and the ability to enjoy them, to accept their lot and be happy in their toil—this is a gift of God. 20 They seldom reflect on the days of their life, because God keeps them occupied with gladness of heart.

Unfortunately, many of us, including myself have a hard time with the last part. Being occupied with gladness of heart. It seems my time is spent on seeking gladness of heart since I find it impossible to stand still and accept what doesn't come on it's own.

In the end of the book, the author states ...
Ecc 12:13
Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the duty of all mankind.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.

Ofcourse, many people would feel this isn't the sort of book to recommend in this instance but it comforts me to know (riding on the theme of Eccs) that it's all been felt and thought before. In the end, he doesn't speak of loving God but fearing Him. Jesus tells us to 'love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul'...could it be that the two are the same, by fearing God we are showing our love?

[yxboom]

I Don't Know How to Love

Well, I might. But not so easily. I don't generally feel kindly toward people. I generally feel quite poorly toward my family (understatement of the year). I tend to notice my flaws and even the flaws more than whatever might be "good" or "right".

That is some brutal honesty, I respect that. I don't know you that well and if anything I say is unwelcome I apologize. I can speak from my own experiences and generally people suck.

I can't ever really recall feeling loved by God. And I can't recall genuinely ever feeling love toward him, though I've cried out to him during my most difficult and trying times. And what is love? Just a sentimental feeling? No, how could love be reduced to that? Definitions are important, aren't they? So biblically, what would love be? God sending his Son to die for us surely would epitomize love wouldn't it? Definitive sacrificial action. But surely aren't we to suppose God loves in a deep and feeling way also (unless we were to adhere to strong divine impassibility)?

Yes, I am convinced God is extremely passionate in His love for us, a search for my posts in Theology201 will attest that I am often accused of having a God that is "too human". He wants to dance with you, He rejoices over you, you are a pearl of a great price. Logic and number theories alone couldn't begin to capture the wonder and beauty of God desiring to be a man, casting off all of His riches just to serve you and to die a hellish death to win you back to Him. What's the point?! Because He passionately loves you, and you were worth it!

What does love for God look like? Feel like? What is love for God? Keeping his commandments? What commandments? In the New Testament, aren't the primary commandments we're to "keep" or obey are (1) loving God with everything we have (2) and others? Surely one may attempt to "keep" divine precepts apart from genuinely loving God. One may refrain from fornication and even strive mightily against lustful thoughts, for example, and yet not feel an ounce of affection for God.

If I were to make a bumper sticker I think it would be, In the absence of love there is law, where there is love there is no law. Love is not duty, it is desire. We are not obligated to love others, it is a desire. I believe that love for God looks like this, agreeing with God that you, I and others (including our difficult family members and even our enemies who want us dead) were worth dying for, and He sees us with unsurpassable worth. It is my personal prayer each day to agree with God and reflect that worth towards others.

I know God is tremendous and (figuratively speaking) huge, but day in and out, it doesn't seem a reality. It's life under the sun. Futility. The cycle of toil, sin, injustice and death. God's love is tremendous. But have you experienced it? Is it a reality for you? Or do you just pretend? Love ought not be reduced only to feelings, but how could it be less? Imagine entering into marriage with no feelings of love toward your spouse. How horrible. Should the question be raised: Are you certain you are a genuine believer in Christ if you do not really love him? But aren't are actions what proves our love for Christ?

That is great you mention marriage, because often I think our attitude about God is we get a contract to escape Hell and God's judgment rather than a covenant of marriage by a passionately loving God. God's attitude toward you is of a spouse who so overwhelmingly and passionately is in love with you that He will always remain faithful in spite of your short comings.

I know my wife loves me. I am a husband to my wife (that is who I am) and I try to act like it because I love her and not because I am trying to see how far I can push my wife before she tires of me.

I wonder what love for God is all about and what it is to feel God's love genuinely without trying to conjure something up, working oneself into a religious fervor. But perhaps prior to all this is repentance and faith, as being declared righteous before God is by faith. We are not "justified by love". Yet love indeed is important. We are to love God and others -- especially the community or household of faith (the church). But I wouldn't know where to begin with that honestly (as pathetic as all this sounds).

I ask you to consider that there would be no justification without love. There is nothing we have against Satan's accusations were it not for God's love. We may be a tainted people, but it is God in His love that rebukes anyone for even noticing. You are loved tremendously by God! When you agree with God that you are worth everything to Him, the flaws in others won't even matter.

I hope that helps.

This sermon by Greg Boyd I think sums this up exceptionally well. http://whchurch.org/blog/4738/stick-and-string

[eudyptes]

That is some brutal honesty, I respect that. I don't know you that well and if anything I say is unwelcome I apologize. I can speak from my own experiences and generally people suck.



Yes, I am convinced God is extremely passionate in His love for us, a search for my posts in Theology201 will attest that I am often accused of having a God that is "too human". He wants to dance with you, He rejoices over you, you are a pearl of a great price. Logic and number theories alone couldn't begin to capture the wonder and beauty of God desiring to be a man, casting off all of His riches just to serve you and to die a hellish death to win you back to Him. What's the point?! Because He passionately loves you, and you were worth it!



If I were to make a bumper sticker I think it would be, In the absence of love there is law, where there is love there is no law. Love is not duty, it is desire. We are not obligated to love others, it is a desire. I believe that love for God looks like this, agreeing with God that you, I and others (including our difficult family members and even our enemies who want us dead) were worth dying for, and He sees us with unsurpassable worth. It is my personal prayer each day to agree with God and reflect that worth towards others.



That is great you mention marriage, because often I think our attitude about God is we get a contract to escape Hell and God's judgment rather than a covenant of marriage by a passionately loving God. God's attitude toward you is of a spouse who so overwhelmingly and passionately is in love with you that He will always remain faithful in spite of your short comings.

I know my wife loves me. I am a husband to my wife (that is who I am) and I try to act like it because I love her and not because I am trying to see how far I can push my wife before she tires of me.



I ask you to consider that there would be no justification without love. There is nothing we have against Satan's accusations were it not for God's love. We may be a tainted people, but it is God in His love that rebukes anyone for even noticing. You are loved tremendously by God! When you agree with God that you are worth everything to Him, the flaws in others won't even matter.

I hope that helps.

This sermon by Greg Boyd I think sums this up exceptionally well. http://whchurch.org/blog/4738/stick-and-string

Well said....

If we still had POTD....this would have to be one....

[RBerman]

Thank you for bearing your soul, Rem. We all go through desert periods where our faith seems at best a rote performance, our prayers a pantomime. I pray that God will strengthen you by his Word, Sacraments, and Church, and especially his Holy Spirit, so that Paul's words would apply to you:

Ephesians 1:16-21

I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

May you be drawn to a greater vision of God's glory and holiness, a deeper realization of your own sinful heart in comparison, and a fuller gratitude of the grace of your forgiveness in Christ Jesus.

[DominickG]

Remonstrant.

You are asking good questions. Apologies if I bore you with my replies.

It is natural and healthy to develop a strong sense of self as you grow up. A strong sense of self, of course, is a strong ego and with a strong ego comes conflict.
This IS natural.

In his book - Mathematics Useful for Understanding Plato - the ancient Greek philosopher Theon of Smyrna wrote:

……..One represents the principle of Unity from which all things arise. Two, the Dyad, represents Duality.
This is the beginning of multiplicity and of strife, but is also the possibility of logos, denoting the relation of one thing to another:

The ancient Greeks had an understanding of the logos that we simply do not share. We are brought up with movie fantasies of the "ideal".
Conflict is part of life.

You say "Imagine entering into marriage with no feelings of love toward your spouse. How horrible."

There are many Hindus who enter into marriages arranged by their parents. There will be many who scarcely know their partner.
Yet there are very few Hindu marriages that end in divorce.
Why?

Because love is commitment to and respect for others.

Love is allowing yourself to be moulded.

Love is letting go of your ego.

Love is working at relationships and not entering into relationships with unrealistic expectations.

Love is creating something new.

The ancient Greeks had a strong belief in a tripartite soul incorporating Spirit, Reason and Faith.

I want you to consider the Gospel of Mark and I want you to imagine Peter as the personification of Spirit.

In Mark 8:32 - Peter took Jesus to one side and began to scold him

In 8:33 33 Jesus turned and looked at his disciples. He scolded Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You are not thinking about the things of God. Instead, you are thinking about human things.”

Christ rejects a faith that is based on a desire to impose our will on others

I want you to imagine John as the personification of Reason.
In Mark 9:38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name. We told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
In Mark 9:39-40 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me. Anyone who is not against us is for us.

Christ rejects a faith that is based on a belief that we are more virtuous than others

I want you to imagine James as the personification of Faith. Faith and Reason is the voice of conviction.

In Mark 10:37 James and John asked Jesus:

“Let one of us sit at your right hand in your glorious kingdom. Let the other one sit at your left hand.”

In Mark 10:39:

Jesus said to them, “You will drink the cup I drink. And you will go through the baptism I go through. But it is not for me to say who will sit at my right or left hand. These places belong to those they are prepared for.”

Christ rejects a faith that is based on the final vanity; the conviction that the sacrifice of oneself for that faith makes us more worthy than others.

You need to engage with other people, talk to other people, do things with other people, share your feelings with other people and lose consciousness of your self.

It is then that you will find love. It is then you will find God.

Thank you ever so much for sharing your feelings.

Sincere Regards

DominickG.

[lee_merrill]

Some C.S. Lewis here?

Mere Christianity

Do not waste your time bothering whether you 'love' your neighbor; act as if you did. As soon as we do this, we find one of the great secrets. When you are behaving as if you loved someone, you will presently come to love him. If you injure someone you dislike, you will find yourself disliking him more. If you do him a good turn, you will find yourself disliking him less.

© source where applicable

And I expect Lewis would apply this to love of God.

And then keep seeking him--and obeying! This has to do with "we love, because he first loved us."

And then some Brother Lawrence...

The Practice of the Presence of God

How can we pray to Him without being with Him? How can we be with Him but in thinking of Him often? And how can we often think of Him, but by a holy habit which we should form of it? You will tell me that I am always saying the same thing: it is true, for this is the best and easiest method I know; and as I use no other, I advise all the world to it. We must know before we can love. In order to know God, we must often think of Him; and when we come to love Him, we shall then also think of Him often, for our heart will be with our treasure. This is an argument which well deserves your consideration.

© source where applicable

Grace, and peace, and God's love,
Lee

[lilpixieofterror]

I think Lee Merrill hit it right on the nose here. Love is an action and love needs to be in action, in order to be working. It is kind of like what James said about 'putting your faith into action' and upon doing this, an interesting thing happens... you will know what the love of God is like. It is quite an interesting thing, in my view that is, when one loves others, they know the love of God for themselves.

[Enow]

I Don't Know How to Love

Well, I might. But not so easily. I don't generally feel kindly toward people. I generally feel quite poorly toward my family (understatement of the year).

Should the question be raised: Are you certain you are a genuine believer in Christ if you do not really love him? But aren't are actions what proves our love for Christ?

I wonder what love for God is all about and what it is to feel God's love genuinely without trying to conjure something up, working oneself into a religious fervor. But perhaps prior to all this is repentance and faith, as being declared righteous before God is by faith. We are not "justified by love". Yet love indeed is important. We are to love God and others -- especially the community or household of faith (the church). But I wouldn't know where to begin with that honestly (as pathetic as all this sounds).

Sometimes I wonder if when seeking someone to love as a wife, if certain guidelines are not necessary to discern if the believer genuinely loves the person or not.

1 Corinthians 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Charity never faileth:

If love seeks not her own, meaning to not seek satisfaction or some personal self serving gain in one form or another, then seeking the good of the other is above one's own gain.

So I often wonder how God has been loving us besides that personal sacrifice for us.

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Then I see this exhortation about the christian marriage.

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

How often do we see christian marriages failing? Is it because the church has not exhorted them enough to love each other as they ought to?

When comparing the works of the flesh against the fruits of the Spirit, I do find the fruit of love being listed among them. It seems reasonable that if anyone is lacking the love they need, then we should be praying for that love to be received from Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:...9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

So I agree that we cannot religiously conjure up love: but we do need to go to the Source.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us.

With His help, as we perfect our love of God by keeping His word, then the God of love will be with us that we can love others, including our enemies.

1 John 2:5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

2 Corinthians 13:11Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

So by perfecting our love of God by continuing in His words, then the God of love will enable us to love others as we ought to since one of the fruits of the Spirit is love.

[The Remonstrant]

I think Lee Merrill hit it right on the nose here. Love is an action and love needs to be in action, in order to be working. It is kind of like what James said about 'putting your faith into action' and upon doing this, an interesting thing happens... you will know what the love of God is like. It is quite an interesting thing, in my view that is, when one loves others, they know the love of God for themselves.

There doesn't seem anything particularly supernatural or divine about this, however. This appears (at least to me) to be an extremely lackluster "gospel" you are positing. One doesn't need belief in God in order to take this route. An atheist might know how to "love", but a theist might not. What if I were to say I myself were living proof (a badge I would not wear proudly)? Let's not be naive. Perhaps no divine origin need be posited for your thesis. Forgive me my skepticism.

Furthermore, what do you/we say to those who essentially have never received or been given love? Tough nuts? (Such a people indeed do exist, perhaps they are in your very midst, in your life, day to day.) Many persons basically do not know how to love (hence my opening post, addressing myself personally). Their parents/legal guardians didn't know how (who may or may not have been evil people), or they were deprived of affection, abused by their siblings, &c., &c.. Dysfunctional relationships are rampant. Love is a learned or taught behavior. Apparently it is not divinely bestowed. Are you aware of how many thousands cry out day and night for help or for God to help them and he leaves them in their pitiable state? How is that "loving"? But I digress; I'm straying somewhat from the opening post.

[lilpixieofterror]

There doesn't seem anything particularly supernatural or divine about this, however.

I find that we sometimes want God to be some kind of big moment, when I don't think he always is. In fact, we find this in the OT with this story:

1 Kings 19:11-13, NIV

The Lord said, “Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the Lord, for the Lord is about to pass by.”

Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake. After the earthquake came a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper. When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.

I find we all look for God in the big things, but not always in the small things. God doesn't have to be complicated or hard to find, when we love others and follow his commandments, that is how I personally find God myself.

This appears (at least to me) to be an extremely lackluster "gospel" you are positing. One doesn't need belief in God in order to take this route. An atheist might know how to "love", but a theist might not. What if I were to say I myself were living proof (a badge I would not wear proudly)? Let's not be naive. Perhaps no divine origin need be posited for your thesis. Forgive me my skepticism.

The big difference between the atheist and the Christians is the how we love and the why we love. For you see, I find many atheist will often love you when you do things for them, but will they when things get difficult? See, I find we humans have an interesting way of going about things, we find loving those that love us in return and/or are not difficult quite easy, but what about those that are not so loving or are difficult to get along with? Love means you must love the unlovable for anybody can love the loving, but can anybody love those that can't be loved?

Furthermore, what do you/we say to those who essentially have never received or been given love?

That one must start with doing it first and foremost.

Tough nuts?

Nah, you show it to them, for where is God found? Was he found in the great and powerful halls of the emperor or was he found in a backwater providence of the empire?

(Such a people indeed do exist, perhaps they are in your very midst, in your life, day to day.) Many persons basically do not know how to love (hence my opening post, addressing myself personally).

And that is what I am pointing out, do they know how not to be loving, if so, then if they started doing the opposite of being unloving, what are they being? Being loving doesn't have to be complex or difficult, but it has to start with a decision to actually be loving. Anybody can love those that are loving, but how much harder is it to love the unlovable?

Their parents/legal guardians didn't know how (who may or may not have been evil people), or they were deprived of affection, abused by their siblings, &c., &c.. Dysfunctional relationships are rampant. Love is a learned or taught behavior. Apparently it is not divinely bestowed. Are you aware of how many thousands cry out day and night for help or for God to help them and he leaves them in their pitiable state? How is that "loving"? But I digress; I'm straying somewhat from the opening post.

The same was said by Christ on the cross, for did he say, "My God, why have you forsaken me?" In fact, isn't that a common tract found throughout the scriptures? How was that dealt with within the scriptures? For you see, the way to stop the cycle of abuse that often follows as the result of the abused is to forgive others (including your abuser), forgive yourself, and refuse to continue the cycle. The answer doesn't have to be complex, but is as simple as following the principles that Christ laid out before us.

[princesa]

Are you aware of how many thousands cry out day and night for help or for God to help them and he leaves them in their pitiable state? How is that "loving"?

This issue I struggle with so much, especially when I am in prayer and/or contemplation for myself. I wonder, others have it so much worse at this very moment should I even venture to ask for something for myself, why me? I'm relatively fine in comparison. Or when I see something that gives me a feeling of God's presence, I think 'how wonderfully pleasant' but then 'no, that's just my imagination' because of the likes of those mentioned in your post.

[The Remonstrant]

gle with so much, especially when I am in prayer and/or contemplation for myself. I wonder, others have it so much worse at this very moment should I even venture to ask for something for myself, why me? I'm relatively fine in comparison. Or when I see something that gives me a feeling of God's presence, I think 'how wonderfully pleasant' but then 'no, that's just my imagination' because of the likes of those mentioned in your post.

Everyone at all times is more or less self-absorbed (this begins with infancy). This, of course, needs to be kept in check. There is nothing wrong, however, with asking things of God; as a matter of fact, we're encouraged to do so (as in Matthew 7:7-11, though the emphasis, it appears, is in "asking" and "seeking" after the kingdom of heaven or kingdom entrance).

As for the presence of God or some tangible evidence for his existence or a sense of his favor, &c., admittedly, I've rarely felt or experienced such. I have learned (somewhat) to put far less weight into "feelings" or the quest for certain sensations/feelings. Based on my circumstances and my feelings in general, it doesn't appear God is greatly active, present or favorable to me in this life. I can thoroughly understand bitterness, disappointment and doubt in God, his goodness, love and wisdom.

I highly doubt much religious fervor as being genuinely authentic or of divine origin. A lot of it really has to do with manipulating emotional states through highly skilled oration (preaching), music (melodies, rhythms, harmonies) and atmosphere or setting. Individuals are particularly open for manipulation due to various personal losses, mental illness, gullibility, being overly trusting or susceptible to the power of suggestion, the primal desire for approval and/or acceptance, &c. Simply put, some persons are especially ripe for religious exploitation.

Despite all this (and my personal hangups and problems aside), I still believe there is a God. Honestly, I find it hard to trust him and believe that he really cares all that much about me. A lot of times I will "feel" this way. I've been angry with him (even recently). You become angry eventually with someone whom you are supposed to trust and be in a relationship with when it really seems there is no relationship at all -- like you're being strung along. At a certain point, all the threats of hell no longer hold the same weight and you become much less repressed in your thinking. Toxic and/or "negative" emotions arise. I believe numerous Christians are simply living in a state of holy. sanctified denial when it comes to those who have finally lost the faith completely. It's not smooth sailing for all of us. The problem of evil and the disparity of divine providence are not imaginary difficulties or merely theoretical fantasies. Real life can be a tremendously difficult (if not impossible) pill to swallow. Denial under the guise of religion or faith in God is no virtue.

[princesa]

Everyone at all times is more or less self-absorbed (this begins with infancy). This, of course, needs to be kept in check. There is nothing wrong, however, with asking things of God; as a matter of fact, we're encouraged to do so (as in Matthew 7:7-11, though the emphasis, it appears, is in "asking" and "seeking" after the kingdom of heaven or kingdom entrance).

If praying for patience, more wisdom, understanding and guidance is considered being self absorbed than I am guilty. My mother REALLY instilled in me, almost to the point of fear, never to pray for material things and i adhere to that til this day.

As for the presence of God or some tangible evidence for his existence or a sense of his favor, &c., admittedly, I've rarely felt or experienced such. I have learned (somewhat) to put far less weight into "feelings" or the quest for certain sensations/feelings. Based on my circumstances and my feelings in general, it doesn't appear God is greatly active, present or favorable to me in this life. I can thoroughly understand bitterness, disappointment and doubt in God, his goodness, love and wisdom.

You are certainly not alone there. (except I don't doubt His wisdom). When I approach God, I am so humble (it's hard to explain) I almost go to him as if I'm unworthy to even ask to be in His presence, MUCH LESS ask for things other than that which I described above. I KNOW Gods reality is not based on my feelings, however, I recently do go about doing things now that may enable me to feel closer to Him, there is nothing wrong with that and everything right with it. Just as you feel heat when you get closer to the stove. Why should I be upset that I don't feel him when I'm moving further and further away on my own volition.

I highly doubt much religious fervor as being genuinely authentic or of divine origin. A lot of it really has to do with manipulating emotional states through highly skilled oration (preaching), music (melodies, rhythms, harmonies) and atmosphere or setting.

I see nothing wrong as I mentioned above with seeking things that will help you feel an emotional connection with God. I wish I had religious fervor if it will make me feel better about myself, more accepting of myself and overall happier with myself, if I can continue to seek out (genuinely) ways to obtain closeness to God and the result is the above mentioned than there is only the positive outcome which is a happier existence, a more trustworthy relationship with God and more peace in my family.

Individuals are particularly open for manipulation due to various personal losses, mental illness, gullibility, being overly trusting or susceptible to the power of suggestion, the primal desire for approval and/or acceptance, &c. Simply put, some persons are especially ripe for religious exploitation.

What type of religious exploitation are you talking about? As I recall, I never mentioned it.

Despite all this (and my personal hangups and problems aside), I still believe there is a God. Honestly, I find it hard to trust him and believe that he really cares all that much about me. A lot of times I will "feel" this way. I've been angry with him (even recently). You become angry eventually with someone whom you are supposed to trust and be in a relationship with when it really seems there is no relationship at all -- like you're being strung along. At a certain point, all the threats of hell no longer hold the same weight and you become much less repressed in your thinking. Toxic and/or "negative" emotions arise. I believe numerous Christians are simply living in a state of holy. sanctified denial when it comes to those who have finally lost the faith completely. It's not smooth sailing for all of us. The problem of evil and the disparity of divine providence are not imaginary difficulties or merely theoretical fantasies. Real life can be a tremendously difficult (if not impossible) pill to swallow.

no denying this, luckily there are ways to ease the difficulty in many cases.

Denial under the guise of religion or faith in God is no virtue.

Don't understand what you're implying here.