Parable of the Brown-Eyed Son

[Carrikature]

It is "left to rot" because I was compiling a list of straw men in Technomage's post. I didn't elaborate on any of the points because they were beyond the scope of that post. Maybe I should have included a video of myself doing the chicken dance, a treatise on communism and a recipe for lemon squares as well to better insulate myself from your objections?

Claiming something as a result of the Fall is merely a hand-wave. It's unsubstantiated, regardless of the intent of your post. I'm well aware of the scope, and the intent of each quoted section was clear. You haven't actually corrected his straw-man by relegating it to the Fall, though. Any of the other things you suggested would have been as meaningful a response to that particular point.

[Darth Executor]

Claiming something as a result of the Fall is merely a hand-wave.

To the ignorant, yes. But among informed people it shifts the issue from "God did X" to "God allowed X to occur" which are different issues with different questions and consequences.

[technomage]

Strawman 1: God does not hate gay people.

What is the difference? And I mean that as a serious question.

According to Christian belief, non-Christians are incapable of doing anything to satisfy God, so into gehenna they go. So if God does not hate these people, in effect he is saying "I do not hate you, but I'm going to condemn you to an eternity of torment for being something you had no choice in being, and for doing things you had no choice but to do."

At best it could be said that God allowed people to turn gay.

People do not "turn" gay. Sexual orientation is inborn and largely immutable--no one "chooses" to be gay. Sexual expression can be changed ... but orientation is fixed, probably before birth.

Translation: God reminds gay people he hates them every day.

Do you never use hyperbole in your posts? Does this counterargument actually refute any of my statement?

No. However, within the context of your starwman love is not necessarily a virtue and loving the brown eyed son most definitely is not a virtue.

Father denotes a supreme authority, so yes.

If such a father existed, he would be unworthy of filial devotion.

If such a God existed, he would be unworthy of worship.

[technomage]

An inaccurate parable. Perhaps not even a parable, just a veiled slam at the misguided picture you have of God.

It is the only picture some "Christians" (and I use the quotes deliberately) will allow.

[technomage]

Science says God made people gay?

Science says that sexual orientation is an inborn trait. People do not "choose" their orientation, though they can change their expression of that orientation.

[Carrikature]

To the ignorant, yes. But among informed people it shifts the issue from "God did X" to "God allowed X to occur" which are different issues with different questions and consequences.

Which still begs the question that the Fall is responsible. Obviously, those are different issues.

[Darth Executor]

What is the difference? And I mean that as a serious question.

Hate = Want to punish someone.
Not hate = Have to punish someone.

According to Christian belief, non-Christians are incapable of doing anything to satisfy God, so into gehenna they go.

No. People go to hell for specific offenses.

So if God does not hate these people, in effect he is saying "I do not hate you, but I'm going to condemn you to an eternity of torment for being something you had no choice in being, and for doing things you had no choice but to do."

The Calvinist God maybe, but it is not proper Christian belief to think you had no choice in doing the things that you do.

People do not "turn" gay. Sexual orientation is inborn and largely immutable--no one "chooses" to be gay. Sexual expression can be changed ... but orientation is fixed, probably before birth.

I agree and disagree about 50/50 but you are misunderstanding my statement. I was not referring to specific individuals. I am saying God allowed homosexuality to arise/exist within the human population, to distinguish from God snapping His fingers and making it arise.

Do you never use hyperbole in your posts? Does this counterargument actually refute any of my statement?

That is not hyperbole, it is an outright falsehood. And you should know better.

If such a father existed, he would be unworthy of filial devotion.

Indeed. That is because others reign supreme above him.

If such a God existed, he would be unworthy of worship.

Untrue. This is merely your personal opinion shaped by a relatively short lived culture that is ultimately insignificant compared to the rest of the universe, let alone an omnipotent being. Opinions in and of themselves carry no absolute weight.

[Whag]

Science says God made people gay?

No, it's more complicated than that. Science says that human beings' sexuality is far more complicated than western religious idiocy like Islam and Catholicism paint it. A woman's impulse to masturbate or express herself sexually with another woman has nothing to do with being defiant of a divine moral order. God made bonobos gay, so it's hard to see your point that he's offended by gay sex.

[Darth Executor]

Science says that sexual orientation is an inborn trait.

If that were the case identical twins would have identical sexual preferences. That is not the case.

People do not "choose" their orientation

"Inborn" and "choice" are not the only options. It could simply be malleable to various extents. Like holding a religious or political belief. I can't just suddenly choose to not be Christian anymore, but it is still possible for my religion to change. I knew a gay guy back when I first got on the internet whom I would get into arguments with. He swore up and down that he was gay and it was impossible for him to be attracted to women. Then 2 years later he was gushing about some girl he was in love with. Like Stephen Fry:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz...ephen-Fry.html

[Darth Executor]

Which still begs the question that the Fall is responsible.

Can you cite some examples of pre-fall homosexuals?

[Whag]

Can you cite some examples of pre-fall homosexuals?

Can you cite evidence that an event in linear time introduced all the stuff you consider yucky about the world?

[Darth Executor]

Can you cite evidence that an event in linear time introduced all the stuff you consider yucky about the world?

I cannot cite evidence for something I don't believe happened, no.

[Whag]

I cannot cite evidence for something I don't believe happened, no.

You don't believe the fall happened?

[Cerebrum123]

You don't believe the fall happened?

No, he doesn't believe that all yucky stuff was introduced in linear time(yucky stuff doesn't necessitate that it is truly evil ).

[Darth Executor]

You don't believe the fall happened?

I don't believe the fall introduced "yucky stuff". I have very few hard opinions on the fall beyond that humans were taken care of before that and were not taken care of after that. This could simply take the form of humans being protected from the otherwise harsh environment, but I don't actually know and neither do you.