The "works-BASED soteriology" nonsense

[nrajeff]

Does anyone here honestly believe that LDS soteriology has "people's works" *-- and not Christ's Atonement-- as its basis?







* Since "works" can mean any number of things, if you answer "yes" to the question, you should explain which definition of "works" you are using, to avoid misunderstandings regarding what you meant.

[Sparko]

yes. and by works I mean trying to follow various rules and commandments, and doing "all that you can" in order to earn some portion of your salvation.

[Cerebrum123]

Yes, it's pretty obvious from LDS teachings that you have to earn your way into heaven. Even 141 admitted it, why do YOU have such a hard time doing so?

[Cow Poke]

I'll vote on behalf of one of your guys!

Yes, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has always been a works based religion. This is because the The Church of Jesus Christ in former days was also a works based religion.

[Cerebrum123]

This is because the The Church of Jesus Christ in former days was also a works based religion.

Wow, he really believes that? I hope he shows up, I would like to ask him what Bible he is reading.

[Cow Poke]

One of my favorite hymns, Rock of Ages, has a couple of verses that say...

Not the labor of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law’s demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone.

Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling;

Jeff, as I mentioned in the other thread, in Christian circles, Salvation is often discussed as EITHER "works based" or "free grace". You can certainly view this as a false dichotomy, but the premise is that any time "works" are added to "grace", then "grace" (unmerited favor) is negated. If you "earn" something, it is no longer "unmerited".

By adding "after all you can do" to the concept taught in Ephesians 2:8-10, "works" are added to "grace", and Salvation is no longer "free grace" or "grace based".

[Cow Poke]

A quick joke....


The crowd in Heaven was straining to listen to an angel making announcements as the latest entrants were going through their orientation class. Rogue was listening hard, but couldn't make out what was said, when suddenly the crowd gave up a big shout and lots of applause! Rogue yelled "What did he SAY!"

CP, who was a little closer to the front, heard Rogue's question, and turned to yell back, "He said Wednesday nights don't count!"



With that, I'm headed off to my Wednesday Night Bible study!

[nrajeff]

I'll vote on behalf of one of your guys!

Uh, proxy voting on behalf of someone else isn't allowed in this thread, until the person is dead.

[Cow Poke]

Uh, proxy voting on behalf of someone else isn't allowed in this thread, until the person is dead.

That should have been explicitly stated in the OP.

But I DID use the quote function!

[One Bad Pig]

One of my favorite hymns, Rock of Ages, has a couple of verses that say...

Not the labor of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law’s demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone.

Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling;

Jeff, as I mentioned in the other thread, in Christian circles, Salvation is often discussed as EITHER "works based" or "free grace". You can certainly view this as a false dichotomy, but the premise is that any time "works" are added to "grace", then "grace" (unmerited favor) is negated. If you "earn" something, it is no longer "unmerited".

By adding "after all you can do" to the concept taught in Ephesians 2:8-10, "works" are added to "grace", and Salvation is no longer "free grace" or "grace based".

I'm not sure how the LDS see this; an explanation of what "after all you can do" means precisely would be helpful. I don't see works and grace in opposition to each other or additive. However, faith without works is dead, as James says; "Grace based" is not necessarily "sola fide." Here's an article I found explaining the patristic idea of synergy:

Augustine’s error was that he unnecessarily accepted one of the key premises of Pelagius’s teaching, namely that grace and works have a kind of temporally sequential relationship. . . . Grace was the work of God alone, while good works were of a person’s free will. This created an opposition between grace and free will that when taken to its logical conclusion had to necessarily favor one to the detriment of the other.

This view saw everything as parts of a whole, grace in economic terms, as if it were money to be traded (Stramara). In this way, salvation becomes an equation such as 10+1=11, where 10 is God’s grace, and 1 is human works. The objection is if man contributes even only 1 by his free will he has done something to save himself and is not wholly dependent on God’s grace. To the Eastern Orthodox it is not this way at all. The equation of synergia, if there can be such a thing, is 10×1=10 and 10×0=0, where 1 is belief and 0 is unbelief. Our cooperation is then not something that contributes to salvation, but rather the means by which God operates, never wishing to subvert our own will. Grace and free will are not in opposition, but they co-operate together so that God’s will may be brought about in people.

[Cow Poke]

I'm not sure how the LDS see this; an explanation of what "after all you can do" means precisely would be helpful.

The "after all you can do" comes from 2 Nephi 25:23 "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

From LDS.org.... (bolding mine)

LDS.org

Besides repentance, our works also include receiving ordinances, keeping covenants, and serving others. While these works are necessary for salvation, they aren’t sufficient. They are not enough because we can’t live perfect lives, but we can do our best to live righteously. By doing so, we invite the Lord’s grace into our lives and qualify for the gift of salvation.

© source where applicable

[One Bad Pig]

The "after all you can do" comes from 2 Nephi 25:23 "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

From LDS.org.... (bolding mine)

LDS.org

Besides repentance, our works also include receiving ordinances, keeping covenants, and serving others. While these works are necessary for salvation, they aren’t sufficient. They are not enough because we can’t live perfect lives, but we can do our best to live righteously. By doing so, we invite the Lord’s grace into our lives and qualify for the gift of salvation.

© source where applicable

Okay, that would be semi-Pelagian, because it seems to reject prevenient grace (works come first, then salvation is granted).

[master_mormon]

So if LDS really believe in a works based salvation system, how many works do LDS believe one has to do be saved? If I want to go buy a house or a car, I first need to know the cost of the house of the car so I can know if I have enough money to buy the house or will be able to afford the monthly payments to buy the house. So do LDS believe that it takes 5000 good works to be saved or 7800 works? What is the number? Also is there any evidence that LDS keep track of how many works they have done like I have done 3800 good works. I just need 1400 more and I am saved?

[Bill the Cat]

Does anyone here honestly believe that LDS soteriology has "people's works" *-- and not Christ's Atonement-- as its basis?







* Since "works" can mean any number of things, if you answer "yes" to the question, you should explain which definition of "works" you are using, to avoid misunderstandings regarding what you meant.

Depends on what you mean by "saved"

[Cerebrum123]

So if LDS really believe in a works based salvation system, how many works do LDS believe one has to do be saved? If I want to go buy a house or a car, I first need to know the cost of the house of the car so I can know if I have enough money to buy the house or will be able to afford the monthly payments to buy the house. So do LDS believe that it takes 5000 good works to be saved or 7800 works? What is the number? Also is there any evidence that LDS keep track of how many works they have done like I have done 3800 good works. I just need 1400 more and I am saved?

Apparently since you have the "after all you can do" would mean your absolute BEST work throughout your entire life(at least after becoming a Mormon). So, have you done "all you can do"(by this I mean your absolute best at all times since becoming a Mormon)? If not, then it looks like you are not "saved"(depending on the definition you are using).