The "works-BASED soteriology" nonsense

[Sparko]

So if LDS really believe in a works based salvation system, how many works do LDS believe one has to do be saved? If I want to go buy a house or a car, I first need to know the cost of the house of the car so I can know if I have enough money to buy the house or will be able to afford the monthly payments to buy the house. So do LDS believe that it takes 5000 good works to be saved or 7800 works? What is the number? Also is there any evidence that LDS keep track of how many works they have done like I have done 3800 good works. I just need 1400 more and I am saved?

That is the problem with any works-based religion, MM. I am glad you recognize the problem. How many works DO you need to do in order for it to count as "after ALL you can do?"

The LDS church leaves that up in the air, don't they? What if you get to heaven and Jesus tells you, "well, MM, you didn't actually do everything you could do. You could have saved that puppy back in 2006, but you let it get run over instead. So you don't get my grace. Sorry."

[Cerebrum123]

That is the problem with any works-based religion, MM. I am glad you recognize the problem. How many works DO you need to do in order for it to count as "after ALL you can do?"

The LDS church leaves that up in the air, don't they? What if you get to heaven and Jesus tells you, "well, MM, you didn't actually do everything you could do. You could have saved that puppy back in 2006, but you let it get run over instead. So you don't get my grace. Sorry."

Maybe MM here should take it up with his fellow Mormons, like 141 who not only admitted that LDS was "works based", but that what Jesus originally taught was works based as well.

[Cow Poke]

So if LDS really believe in a works based salvation system, how many works do LDS believe one has to do be saved? If I want to go buy a house or a car, I first need to know the cost of the house of the car so I can know if I have enough money to buy the house or will be able to afford the monthly payments to buy the house. So do LDS believe that it takes 5000 good works to be saved or 7800 works? What is the number? Also is there any evidence that LDS keep track of how many works they have done like I have done 3800 good works. I just need 1400 more and I am saved?

Therein lies the rub!

[mossrose]

Even if only one "work" was required, it would still negate grace.

A long time ago, while studying Galatians, a friend of mine said, "If you have to cross a chasm that is 100 feet across, and you had 99 feet of rope and 1 foot of string, how well would you do?"

The point being that if God's grace, unmerited favour, was symbolized by the rope, and "after all I can do" was symbolized by the string, you wouldn't get across the chasm. The string is useless. You need all of the rope.

[Krusader]

I'm glad you're reading Lewis. Try reading "Mere Christianity."

[nrajeff]

So if LDS really believe in a works based salvation system,

Which we don't, I claim

how many works do LDS believe one has to do be saved? If I want to go buy a house or a car, I first need to know the cost of the house of the car so I can know if I have enough money to buy the house or will be able to afford the monthly payments to buy the house. So do LDS believe that it takes 5000 good works to be saved or 7800 works? What is the number? Also is there any evidence that LDS keep track of how many works they have done like I have done 3800 good works. I just need 1400 more and I am saved?

And the fact that we don't think that way, is evidence that our works are NOT the basis of our salvation. The basis (2. a fundamental principle or groundwork; foundation;dictionary.reference.com/browse/base) of a person's salvation is Christ and His Atonement. Any progress or success we may make toward becoming like Him and His Father have Christ and His Atonement as their basis or foundation, since were it not for Christ, nothing we did would have any worth in that regard.

If you build an upper level of a skyscraper, it might be accurate to say that you played a part in its completion, but your contribution wouldn't be happening were it not for the Person who built the foundation. In the context of a person's salvation, only one Person (Christ) was qualified to be the foundation builder. Therefore, anyone and everyone of us who gets any degree of salvation, owes it directly to Christ. What He did is the basis of salvation, period. So a Christian should have a Christ-based soteriology, really. All this verbiage about works is rather moot from that perspective.

[Cow Poke]

Which we don't, I claim

But he's a MASTER Mormon, Jeff.

[Cow Poke]

And the fact that we don't think that way, is evidence that our works are NOT the basis of our salvation. The basis (2. a fundamental principle or groundwork; foundation;dictionary.reference.com/browse/base) of a person's salvation is Christ and His Atonement. Any progress or success we may make toward becoming like Him and His Father have Christ and His Atonement as their basis or foundation, since were it not for Christ, nothing we did would have any worth in that regard.

I don't know that anybody is claiming that works are the BASIS or FOUNDATION of your salvation, Jeff. You guys change definitions all the time. What I have claimed is that your religion is "works based", and I have made it clear on several occasions what that means. I have given examples.

We keep saying that if works are added as a requirement (qualification) for Salvation in ADDITION to grace through faith, that's what is commonly referred to as "works based".

Kinda like girl scout cookies aren't made 100% out of girl scouts.

[nrajeff]

Even if only one "work" was required, it would still negate grace.
A long time ago, while studying Galatians, a friend of mine said, "If you have to cross a chasm that is 100 feet across, and you had 99 feet of rope and 1 foot of string, how well would you do?"
The point being that if God's grace, unmerited favour, was symbolized by the rope, and "after all I can do" was symbolized by the string, you wouldn't get across the chasm. The string is useless. You need all of the rope.

Another variation that I have heard more than once is:


If you were in the middle of the ocean, drowning, and a Person showed up in a boat that you were too weak to climb onto by yourself, and He extended His hand so that all you needed to do to be saved was to reach up your own hand to His in the belief that He was able to pull you to safety and save you, then it was literally "all you could do" to believe in Him and extend your hand to His. Without Him (Christ), you have zero chance of being saved. But without your own decision to believe in Him and reach up to Him, you also have no chance of being saved. That doesn't mean that you saved yourself, except in a semantical parsing kind of way. For all practical purposes, Jesus is the one who saved you, and is the one whom you would credit your being saved to, and to whom you would owe an unrepayable debt to.

That version is very close to how the LDS see it.

[Cow Poke]

Another variation that I have heard more than once is:


If you were in the middle of the ocean, drowning, and a Person showed up in a boat that you were too weak to climb onto by yourself, and He extended His hand so that all you needed to do to be saved was to reach up your own hand to His in the belief that He was able to pull you to safety and save you, then it was literally "all you could do" to believe in Him and extend your hand to His. Without Him (Christ), you have zero chance of being saved. But without your own decision to believe in Him and reach up to Him, you also have no chance of being saved. That doesn't mean that you saved yourself, except in a semantical parsing kind of way. For all practical purposes, Jesus is the one who saved you, and is the one whom you would credit your being saved to, and to whom you would owe an unrepayable debt to.

That version is very close to how the LDS see it.

That sure doesn't sound like the following:


From LDS.org.... (bolding mine)

LDS.org

Besides repentance, our works also include receiving ordinances, keeping covenants, and serving others. While these works are necessary for salvation, they aren’t sufficient. They are not enough because we can’t live perfect lives, but we can do our best to live righteously. By doing so, we invite the Lord’s grace into our lives and qualify for the gift of salvation.

© source where applicable

"Reaching out your hand to Christ" sounds a lot more like "accepting a free gift" with "no strings attached".

In your analogy, does the person in the boat toss you back in the water if you don't help row, or swab the decks, or pump the bilge?

[Sparko]

Another variation that I have heard more than once is:


If you were in the middle of the ocean, drowning, and a Person showed up in a boat that you were too weak to climb onto by yourself, and He extended His hand so that all you needed to do to be saved was to reach up your own hand to His in the belief that He was able to pull you to safety and save you, then it was literally "all you could do" to believe in Him and extend your hand to His. Without Him (Christ), you have zero chance of being saved. But without your own decision to believe in Him and reach up to Him, you also have no chance of being saved. That doesn't mean that you saved yourself, except in a semantical parsing kind of way. For all practical purposes, Jesus is the one who saved you, and is the one whom you would credit your being saved to, and to whom you would owe an unrepayable debt to.

That version is very close to how the LDS see it.

that may be the way YOU see it jeff, and if so, then you don't believe in works-based salvation, but your church teaches that you have to keep the commandments and continue to do everything you can to get Jesus to "give you his hand and pull you up" - it is not "belief" as you equated in your analogy to reaching out your hand, but actually climbing part way up the boat under your own power before Jesus will reach down to you and pull you the rest of the way up. The LDS teach that salvation is CONTINGENT upon your efforts, not just your belief. We have given you the quotes from the LDS.org site. You might not agree, but that is what your religion teaches.

[nrajeff]

That sure doesn't sound like the following:

To me it does and I will try to explain.

...

LDS.org

Besides repentance, our works also include receiving ordinances, keeping covenants, and serving others. While these works are necessary for salvation, they aren’t sufficient. They are not enough because we can’t live perfect lives, but we can do our best to live righteously. By doing so, we invite the Lord’s grace into our lives and qualify for the gift of salvation.

© source where applicable

"Reaching out your hand to Christ" sounds a lot more like "accepting a free gift" with "no strings attached".

Reaching out for help involves several things:

1. The realization that you are in trouble and need someone's help to be saved from the situation you are in.

2. The belief that a person who is willing and able to help you exists.

3. The belief that such a person knows your situation and is offering the help you desperately need.

4. The decision or choice to ACT, to do whatever you are able to do, to avail yourself of that help--starting with asking that person for help, even if it is by the act of reaching out your hand for it because that is all, in your situation, you are reasonably able to do.

After all you were reasonably able to do, the Person saves you. If any of those 4 steps is missing, I don't see you reaching out (asking) for help from the Person who is willing and able to save you. And if you don't ever reach out for help from this Person, will He save you? What is your answer?

In your analogy, does the person in the boat toss you back in the water if you don't help row, or swab the decks, or pump the bilge?

In your life down here, doing all that you could reasonably be expected to do for Christ is equivalent to what the drowning person did--it was all a person could do at the time.
Only a severe ingrate would, after being saved, decide to just sit on a deck chair and make fun of the other drowning people instead of helping the Savior do the chores that keep the boat in good shape and fit for rescuing other drowning people.

Let Christ answer your question as to whether He will have a mind to cast such people off His boat. Read Matthew 7, for example.

[Cerebrum123]

To me it does and I will try to explain.



Reaching out for help involves several things:

1. The realization that you are in trouble and need someone's help to be saved from the situation you are in.

2. The belief that a person who is willing and able to help you exists.

3. The belief that such a person knows your situation and is offering the help you desperately need.

4. The decision or choice to ACT, to do whatever you are able to do, to avail yourself of that help--starting with asking that person for help, even if it is by the act of reaching out your hand for it because that is all, in your situation, you are reasonably able to do.

After all you were reasonably able to do, the Person saves you. If any of those 4 steps is missing, I don't see you reaching out (asking) for help from the Person who is willing and able to save you. And if you don't ever reach out for help from this Person, will He save you? What is your answer?


In your life down here, doing all that you could reasonably be expected to do for Christ is equivalent to what the drowning person did--it was all a person could do at the time.
Only a severe ingrate would, after being saved, decide to just sit on a deck chair and make fun of the other drowning people instead of helping the Savior do the chores that keep the boat in good shape and fit for rescuing other drowning people.

Let Christ answer your question as to whether He will have a mind to cast such people off His boat. Read Matthew 7, for example.

That is IMO a good answer, but it is NOT what LDS teaches. It teaches that you have to QUALIFY even for the CHANCE to be able to REACH OUT to the person in the boat, and that if you don't do your ABSOLUTE BEST, then you will be tossed out, and back into the water to drown. At least it seems there is quite a bit more hope for you yet, you are much closer to what being saved is about compared to LDS doctrine.

[Cow Poke]

To me it does and I will try to explain.

Reaching out for help involves several things:

1. The realization that you are in trouble and need someone's help to be saved from the situation you are in.

We say "you must get 'lost' before you can get 'saved'"

2. The belief that a person who is willing and able to help you exists.

Belief that Christ alone can save you is fundamental.

3. The belief that such a person knows your situation and is offering the help you desperately need.

I would think this is wrapped up in #2, but OK!

4. The decision or choice to ACT, to do whatever you are able to do, to avail yourself of that help--starting with asking that person for help, even if it is by the act of reaching out your hand for it because that is all, in your situation, you are reasonably able to do.

We would call that "accepting the gift". Christ could stand there all day long with outstretched arms, but only when we make the move to accept the offer is Salvation really "given".

After all you were reasonably able to do, the Person saves you.

And you were doing GREAT up to here, because we both know it's NOT simply "after all you were reasonably able to do" in Mormonism... the "conditions" to "qualify" continue on well after the acceptance of the free gift of Salvation.

If any of those 4 steps is missing, I don't see you reaching out (asking) for help from the Person who is willing and able to save you. And if you don't ever reach out for help from this Person, will He save you? What is your answer?

We're good up to the point where you add "after all you can do" again.

In your life down here, doing all that you could reasonably be expected to do for Christ is equivalent to what the drowning person did--it was all a person could do at the time.

No, because, as your Church teaches it, I can be tossed back for not rowing or swabbing the decks or doing other "works" to stay in the boat.

Only a severe ingrate would, after being saved, decide to just sit on a deck chair and make fun of the other drowning people instead of helping the Savior do the chores that keep the boat in good shape and fit for rescuing other drowning people.

And this applies to us continually saying that we "work" BECAUSE we are saved, not to KEEP our Salvation.

Let Christ answer your question as to whether He will have a mind to cast such people off His boat. Read Matthew 7, for example.

I'm totally familiar with Matt 7 - it says nothing about losing my Salvation because I haven't done "all I can do".

[Bill the Cat]

That is IMO a good answer, but it is NOT what LDS teaches. It teaches that you have to QUALIFY even for the CHANCE to be able to REACH OUT to the person in the boat, and that if you don't do your ABSOLUTE BEST, then you will be tossed out, and back into the water to drown. At least it seems there is quite a bit more hope for you yet, you are much closer to what being saved is about compared to LDS doctrine.

Not necesarily. It's more like the LDS teach that there is the MAIN boat (Celestial Kingdom), the lifeboats (Telestial Kingdom), and handles on the side of the hull(Terrestrial Kingdom). Jesus only "saves" you in that He put the handles on the side of the boat. You have to work yourself up to the lifeboat and then the main boat, and only those who have worked hard enough actually make it onto the main deck.