The "works-BASED soteriology" nonsense

[Cerebrum123]

Of course there is, as long as I continue to place my hope and trust in Christ.

Can't disagree there.

As a lifelong LDS, my description is what I have learned, been taught, and come to believe. And it has never been challenged by any of my leaders, fellow missionaries, LDS friends, teachers, etc. I am willing to bet that OC completely agrees with it.
And most likely the other LDS here. I am willing to ask them if you are skeptical. And I question any implication, if any, that my description would be agreed to by a majority of the Evangelicals who post in anti-LDS forums. I don't have a good reading on the majority of Evangelicals in general, but the ones who post in anti-LDS forums have, from what I have seen, been of the OSAS/OBIS/unconditional salvation type.

Then they seem to be teaching what is far closer to the Bible that the "official" LDS teachings. Also, the only thing that I can think of that would nullify salvation is complete apostasy. People who usually go by the "once saved always saved" seem to think that those who go into apostasy "were never really Christian", but I think that that is something they just can't truly know.

I agree. I never meant otherwise. The reference to jumping back in was a response to the idea that the very first time a person realizes that his soul is in peril and that he needs to be saved, is the ONLY time his soul is in peril. The point there was that any of us has the potential to change sides and choose to betray Christ and start working against Him, at any time between our initial "Ask for help and get help" moment, and Judgment Day.

People can have spiritual problems, and still not in danger of losing their salvation.

[Cerebrum123]

I question the validity of that 2-extremes-only menu. Who says that every church, or every soteriology in existence, falls into either one extreme or the other? It seems arbitrary, like "your destiny is either extreme heaven or extreme hell--nothing in between."

Most people I know believe that there are "degrees" of punishment in hell, and degrees of reward in heaven, but no "middle ground" such as in purgatory, or the LDS "trailer park heaven"(I know it has a different name, but I know what you mean by my analogy here, since we have used it before).

[Cow Poke]

I would like to know why Jeff can't produce any official LDS teachings that agree with what he says?

Is it your turn, or my turn, to show him once again what LDS.org says about "after all you can do" and "works" being "required" for Salvation?

[nrajeff]

Most people I know believe that there are "degrees" of punishment in hell, and degrees of reward in heaven, but no "middle ground" such as in purgatory, or the LDS "trailer park heaven"(I know it has a different name, but I know what you mean by my analogy here, since we have used it before).

Thanks for sharing your experience-based observations. What do you suppose the percentage of Christians who believe that there is no gradation in heaven and hell is?

[Cerebrum123]

Thanks for sharing your experience-based observations. What do you suppose the percentage of Christians who believe that there is no gradation in heaven and hell is?

I don't know. Percentage wise as far as people I know, would probably be 0%.

[Bill the Cat]

I don't know. Percentage wise as far as people I know, would probably be 0%.

I do not see any gradiation in heaven. Rewards, yes. Levels that are only accessable to certain groups, no.

[nrajeff]

I do not see any gradiation in heaven. Rewards, yes. Levels that are only accessable to certain groups, no.

We were talking in the context of rewards and punishments. Not levels with varying accessibility.

So if some of the "elect" get more rewards in heaven than others do, is it because they "earned" more because of their "works" ?

And what about hell? Will some of its guests be punished or tortured more than others there, based on the varying severity of sins they committed?
Will the murderers who go to hell be punished more severely than the liars who end up there will be?

[Cerebrum123]

I do not see any gradiation in heaven. Rewards, yes. Levels that are only accessable to certain groups, no.

This is actually what I meant. For certain people their rewards in heaven will be greater, and for those in hell, there will be people who are punished worse than others. If I wasn't clear on that, I am sorry. Maybe I should have worded what I said differently.

[Cerebrum123]

We were talking in the context of rewards and punishments. Not levels with varying accessibility.

So if some of the "elect" get more rewards in heaven than others do, is it because they "earned" more because of their "works" ?

And what about hell? Will some of its guests be punished or tortured more than others there, based on the varying severity of sins they committed?
Will the murderers who go to hell be punished more severely than the liars who end up there will be?

Actually, you summed it up quite well. If you are going by the "honor/shame" version of heaven and hell, then certain people in hell have more to be ashamed of, because of what they did in life, and some in heaven, have earned more rewards for what they did in life, but these rewards are in addition to, and not equal with salvation.

[Bill the Cat]

So if some of the "elect" get more rewards in heaven than others do, is it because they "earned" more because of their "works" ?

Yes, there are "crowns" listed for certain deeds. However, all of them will be cast down before Jesus' feet because He alone is worthy of them.

And what about hell? Will some of its guests be punished or tortured more than others there, based on the varying severity of sins they committed?
Will the murderers who go to hell be punished more severely than the liars who end up there will be?

I see no support for that in the Bible. There is an ambiguous passage in Revelation that says liars will have their part in the lake of fire, but that is not clearly saying that it will be a worse or better part.