Infants, Imputed Guilt & Interpreting Romans 5:12

[lee_merrill]

OK - Then show it to us from some of the Fathers of the Church in the first thousand years of the Christian Faith...

Well then, some Augustine:

Augustine of Hippo, "The City of God", trans. Marcus Dods

In the first man, therefore, there existed the whole human nature, which was to be transmitted by the woman to posterity, when that conjugal union received the divine sentence of its own condemnation; and what man was made, not when created, but when he sinned and was punished, this he propagated, so far as the origin of sin and death are concerned.

© source where applicable

This is how Jesus escaped the legal charge of sin which all the rest of us must face? In fact, he assumed that charge in being born fully fallen man in every respect except that He did not commit any sin...

No, sir. Jesus was not born as fallen man.

Only the ones who agree with your theology... That translation alters the text...

But I think "in iniquity" and "in sin" quite naturally can be "sinful" (so did the NIV translators), no modification of the text is occurring. Certainly there are other possible meanings, but I think these the most likely ones.

For just as
through the disobedience of the one man
The many were caused to be sinful
So also
Through the obedience of the One
The many will be caused to be righteous.

This passage does not mean that men are born sinners, but are born fallen, and thereby sin... The disobedience of the one, Adam, caused the many to sin THROUGH death, which entered creation through that one sin...

Thank you for addressing this, you are the first! Yet the text reads, through the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners, there is a direct link between Adam's sin and our being made sinners.

And are you saying death causes people to sin? I might ask you to show this to me in the Church Fathers. But please show me where this is stated in Scripture.

... It is the disobedience of Adam that causes us all to sin, no question...

And by which we are constituted as sinners, says Paul. Who it might be added, lived in the first 1,000 years of Christian faith!

Blessings,
Lee

[Rdr. Arsenios]

"Nobody is without sin" and "All sin counts the same" are not equivalent statements. I believe the first (with the obvious exception of the Lord Jesus) but not the second, because Jesus himself talks about some sins receiving worse punishment than others.

I remember asking you at the time [if it indeed was YOU...] exactly that... It is one thing to be a sinner, and another to be living in sins... To be committing sins in the normal conduct of one's life... And you replied that nobody is without sin, 'for all have sinned', and we sin every day, and I countered that there is sin and there is the committing of sin, and a huge difference, in that when we commit a sin, we need to confess it and repent and seek forgiveness, and this is to NOT be the norm, but can happen... And you said it made no difference, that even a sin of omission is the same as one of commission, that unintentional sin is still sin, and we are all living lives of sin... I mean, heck RB - Maybe it wasn't you - I thought it was - and maybe I am remembering the whole thing wrong...

Anyhow, I am glad you agree that the deliberate doing of a sin is a serious matter for a Christian, and that unintentional sins are not all that serious YET...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Well then, some Augustine:

Augustine of Hippo, "The City of God", trans. Marcus Dods

In the first man, therefore, there existed the whole human nature, which was to be transmitted by the woman to posterity, when that conjugal union received the divine sentence of its own condemnation; and what man was made, not when created, but when he sinned and was punished, this he propagated, so far as the origin of sin and death are concerned.

© source where applicable

Sorry - Augustine is a Father of the Latin Church... And then only when he was later rediscovered when Rome tried to take over the Church of Christ...

No, sir. Jesus was not born as fallen man.

What is not assumed by Christ of man is not healed/restored/transformed by Him...

If Christ did not take upon Himself our fallen human nature in His Incarnation, then He did not die for us, and we cannot partake in His Resurrection...

[quote]But I think "in iniquity" and "in sin" quite naturally can be "sinful" (so did the NIV translators), no modification of the text is occurring. Certainly there are other possible meanings, but I think these the most likely ones.

David [is] saying "surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me," as some translations render it."????

You see, he is describing, together with his confession of difficulties from his youth, how he even began in his mother's difficulties - eg sins... He was not born sinning, he was born with issues that resulted in sin when he moved through them... And especially later, with Bathsheba...

Thank you for addressing this, you are the first! Yet the text reads, through the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners, there is a direct link between Adam's sin and our being made sinners.

And are you saying death causes people to sin? I might ask you to show this to me in the Church Fathers. But please show me where this is stated in Scripture.

BINGO!!! You win the prize! DEATH, which we all inherit in Adam, CAUSES us all to sin!!
HOORAY!!! I THOUGHT you were not getting this oft repeated point!

NOW... With that idea firmly in your grip, read this literal translation of Romans 5:12:

Rom_5:12

Wherefore,
just as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death by [that] sin;
and so death passed unto all men,
upon which [death] all [men] have sinned:

And by which we are constituted as sinners, says Paul. Who it might be added, lived in the first 1,000 years of Christian faith!

Paul qualifies as a Church Father! :-)

And Paul tells us that it is the death which we inherit from the sin of Adam, the Fall, that constitutes the basis of our doing of sins...

Arsenios

[footwasher]

Methinks you may need to reread Genesis 2, then--in the Jewish Scriptures. Note, "in the day you eat of it, you will surely die."

Blessings,
Lee

Which is consonant with the following views:

1) Death is separation from God.

2) Separation from God is required to grow (think flying solo).

3) Separation from God (becoming blind) is required so that Redemption can be carried out and God's character can be revealed.

4) Separation from God is required so follo wing (3) we can buy God's plan and deeds and make them our own:

Isaiah 55:8-9 NET
“Indeed, my plans are not like your plans,
and my deeds are not like your deeds,
for just as the sky is higher than the earth,
so my deeds are superior to your deeds
and my plans superior to your plans.

John 14:10-14 NET
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you, I do not speak on my own initiative, but the Father residing in me performs his miraculous deeds. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me, but if you do not believe me, believe because of the miraculous deeds themselves. I tell you the solemn truth, the person who believes in me will perform the miraculous deeds that I am doing, and will perform greater deeds than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

John 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

John 7:16 Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me.

I loves it when brothers agree (with things that make sense!). ;)

[RBerman]

I remember asking you at the time [if it indeed was YOU...] exactly that... It is one thing to be a sinner, and another to be living in sins... To be committing sins in the normal conduct of one's life... And you replied that nobody is without sin, 'for all have sinned', and we sin every day, and I countered that there is sin and there is the committing of sin, and a huge difference, in that when we commit a sin, we need to confess it and repent and seek forgiveness, and this is to NOT be the norm, but can happen... And you said it made no difference, that even a sin of omission is the same as one of commission, that unintentional sin is still sin, and we are all living lives of sin... I mean, heck RB - Maybe it wasn't you - I thought it was - and maybe I am remembering the whole thing wrong...

Anyhow, I am glad you agree that the deliberate doing of a sin is a serious matter for a Christian, and that unintentional sins are not all that serious YET.

It is true that different sins have different levels of seriousness, but I would never presume to describe any sin as "not all that serious." Even an unintentional sin is still sin.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

It is true that different sins have different levels of seriousness, but I would never presume to describe any sin as "not all that serious." Even an unintentional sin is still sin.

Well, the depth of the Fall is indeed daunting, and in this decrepitude, we are called to rise, establishing virtue in ourselves in repentance from sin by God's Grace... And the race is run from day to day - It is not addressed all at once, but is metered out to us according to our strength... God's Grace holds the rest from us until we gain strength for greater trials... Such that sins of ignorance and omission in a beginner are not all that serious, whilst the very same sins in one mature in the Faith would be a disaster for that person's soul... And one of the reasons for that is because the one mature is not so ignorant, and knows better than to omit a deed of virtue when it is present to him...

You see, maturity in the Faith comes with the "running of the race set before us", and this differs according to the life of each of us... The race, of course, is against the demonic forces which seek our destruction by keeping us in sins... The Psalmist writes: "And they that sought after my soul used violence, and them that desired evils for me spake vain things, and craftinesses all the day long did they meditate... [But I was as a deaf man and heard them not, and became as a speechless man that openeth not his mouth...(etc)] David is writing here of spiritual warfare - And one does not become mature in the Faith without it, for without it one does not acquire strength to resist temptations... And this is a long process of acquisition of virtue in patience and longsuffering... The result, of course, is righteousness before God that is tested and tried and found worthy in deeds... Or not... [And then back to one's struggles to attain virtue and courage.]

So that in the course of this kind of battle, as long as one is struggling and battling and engaging in opposition, sometimes even violent opposition, to these forces of evil within one's self, the battles will rage, and the only sin is stopping the struggle against them... Even when one falls into a sin, one then gets right back up and confesses it and resets for the next round [of lap, on the race metaphor]...

And if, in this fray, one forgets to empty the catbox for a day, it is a minor sin... But if you decide to commit adultery with your neighbor's wife, and do so, you are in big trouble...

You see, it is in one's battle against sin, even unto blood, that one gain's one's soul... Persevering to the end... And the salvation is by Grace, through one's Faithfulness in the face of temptations... You can't earn it, but you can throw it away [with your neighbor's wife, for instance...]

Such a sin [adultery] turns one into a "worker of iniquity" who will, at the Last judgement, hear the words: "Depart from Me...", whereas the sin of forgetting to take out the catbox will not cast you into this departure from salvation...

And this is why confession and repentance from the sin of adultery is so important...
And likewise with other major and deliberate sins...

Arsenios

[RBerman]

Well, the depth of the Fall is indeed daunting, and in this decrepitude, we are called to rise, establishing virtue in ourselves in repentance from sin by God's Grace... And the race is run from day to day - It is not addressed all at once, but is metered out to us according to our strength... God's Grace holds the rest from us until we gain strength for greater trials... Such that sins of ignorance and omission in a beginner are not all that serious, whilst the very same sins in one mature in the Faith would be a disaster for that person's soul... And one of the reasons for that is because the one mature is not so ignorant, and knows better than to omit a deed of virtue when it is present to him...

You see, maturity in the Faith comes with the "running of the race set before us", and this differs according to the life of each of us... The race, of course, is against the demonic forces which seek our destruction by keeping us in sins... The Psalmist writes: "And they that sought after my soul used violence, and them that desired evils for me spake vain things, and craftinesses all the day long did they meditate... [But I was as a deaf man and heard them not, and became as a speechless man that openeth not his mouth...(etc)] David is writing here of spiritual warfare - And one does not become mature in the Faith without it, for without it one does not acquire strength to resist temptations... And this is a long process of acquisition of virtue in patience and longsuffering... The result, of course, is righteousness before God that is tested and tried and found worthy in deeds... Or not... [And then back to one's struggles to attain virtue and courage.]

So that in the course of this kind of battle, as long as one is struggling and battling and engaging in opposition, sometimes even violent opposition, to these forces of evil within one's self, the battles will rage, and the only sin is stopping the struggle against them... Even when one falls into a sin, one then gets right back up and confesses it and resets for the next round [of lap, on the race metaphor]...

And if, in this fray, one forgets to empty the catbox for a day, it is a minor sin... But if you decide to commit adultery with your neighbor's wife, and do so, you are in big trouble...

You see, it is in one's battle against sin, even unto blood, that one gain's one's soul... Persevering to the end... And the salvation is by Grace, through one's Faithfulness in the face of temptations... You can't earn it, but you can throw it away [with your neighbor's wife, for instance...]

Such a sin [adultery] turns one into a "worker of iniquity" who will, at the Last judgement, hear the words: "Depart from Me...", whereas the sin of forgetting to take out the catbox will not cast you into this departure from salvation...

And this is why confession and repentance from the sin of adultery is so important...
And likewise with other major and deliberate sins...

Arsenios

Confession of all sins is important. We don't do ourselves or God or our neighbors any favor by using tems like "minor sins." But by all means, do emphasize how some sins are even worse than others, and that God's grace is sufficient to cover the worst we can throw at Him.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Confession of all sins is important. We don't do ourselves or God or our neighbors any favor by using terms like "minor sins." But by all means, do emphasize how some sins are even worse than others, and that God's grace is sufficient to cover the worst we can throw at Him.

If one does not rank sins, then one cannot overcome sins... Because if one is overcoming the major sins, one is winning one's battle for salvation, but if not, one is lost... For it is in the overcoming of one's own sins that one finds salvation - And one simply CANNOT overcome ALL sins at once... This is the reason that we "run the race set before us", because each lap in the race must be won before the next can be run, and we run to overcome our particular tendencies to sin, eg our weaknesses and infirmities... And they are brought forth for us to overcome according to God's providence, both of the permitting of the temptations and providing the Grace to overcome them...

Without overcoming sin in our own soul, there IS no salvation...
This is why salvation is a huge work of Faith...
The work does not save, but without it, God does not save...
Because God prescribes the works that we BE saved...

So that, as one overcomes sin in one's self, one is still a sinner, in that one DESIRES the sin, even in repentance from DOING the sin... And the more one repents, the greater one's conviction of sin, even if one is doing no sin at all, because the temptation to sin is still at the door of one's soul...

You see, it is the DIRECTION of our movement in overcoming sin that determines our salvation, and not the fact that we lose a battle from time to time... If we should become arrogant in self esteem in our overcoming of sin, and start to forget that it is God's Grace that is actually overcoming the sins, God sometimes permits that Grace to be withdrawn so that we fall again, and in that fall, we regain the essential humility without which we will not be saved... Christ calls these "chastisements" and tells us not to "faint" when they come... Easier said than done!

But the long and the short of it is that the battle is ours to win, and win it we must, and in the winning we cannot claim the win, but God is victorious, and we are only giving what is owed...

And the point of this line is that I do not see Calvinists focusing on the actual processes of overcoming sin, and the importance of that process to one's salvation - Instead, they tend to say that we are all sinners, and even the elect do not overcome sin, and continue to live sinful lives, and the proof of this is that they are not perfect...

Yet in practical terms, the only way they then have left, is the preaching of doctrines, because in their doctrinal view, correct doctrines are salvific, and not the overcoming of sin...

Arsenios

[micah719]

Still preaching DIY salvation, George?

[RBerman]

If one does not rank sins, then one cannot overcome sins... Because if one is overcoming the major sins, one is winning one's battle for salvation, but if not, one is lost... For it is in the overcoming of one's own sins that one finds salvation - And one simply CANNOT overcome ALL sins at once... This is the reason that we "run the race set before us", because each lap in the race must be won before the next can be run, and we run to overcome our particular tendencies to sin, eg our weaknesses and infirmities... And they are brought forth for us to overcome according to God's providence, both of the permitting of the temptations and providing the Grace to overcome them...

Without overcoming sin in our own soul, there IS no salvation...
This is why salvation is a huge work of Faith...
The work does not save, but without it, God does not save...
Because God prescribes the works that we BE saved...

So that, as one overcomes sin in one's self, one is still a sinner, in that one DESIRES the sin, even in repentance from DOING the sin... And the more one repents, the greater one's conviction of sin, even if one is doing no sin at all, because the temptation to sin is still at the door of one's soul...

You see, it is the DIRECTION of our movement in overcoming sin that determines our salvation, and not the fact that we lose a battle from time to time... If we should become arrogant in self esteem in our overcoming of sin, and start to forget that it is God's Grace that is actually overcoming the sins, God sometimes permits that Grace to be withdrawn so that we fall again, and in that fall, we regain the essential humility without which we will not be saved... Christ calls these "chastisements" and tells us not to "faint" when they come... Easier said than done!

But the long and the short of it is that the battle is ours to win, and win it we must, and in the winning we cannot claim the win, but God is victorious, and we are only giving what is owed...

And the point of this line is that I do not see Calvinists focusing on the actual processes of overcoming sin, and the importance of that process to one's salvation - Instead, they tend to say that we are all sinners, and even the elect do not overcome sin, and continue to live sinful lives, and the proof of this is that they are not perfect...

Yet in practical terms, the only way they then have left, is the preaching of doctrines, because in their doctrinal view, correct doctrines are salvific, and not the overcoming of sin...

Arsenios

So many words, George. So many tangents. Really we're just debating about the impact of calling some sin "minor." You can argue that if only some sins are "major" then other sins by definition must be "minor." Technically that may be true, but in usual speech, Americans equate "minor" with "trivial; unimportant," which is why I don't endorse calling any sin "minor."

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Still preaching DIY salvation, George?

Are you still learning how to read with comprehension, Micah?

Is Micah your real name?

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

So many words, George. So many tangents. Really we're just debating about the impact of calling some sin "minor." You can argue that if only some sins are "major" then other sins by definition must be "minor." Technically that may be true, but in usual speech, Americans equate "minor" with "trivial; unimportant," which is why I don't endorse calling any sin "minor."

Fair enough - The issue is that of an entirely different Christological frame of reference, wherein the issue is simply and grossly differently understood by each of us... So I use a lot of words to explain what is not a part of your understanding...

So perhaps a question might help:

What does your doctrine have a person DO about their sins? Is it the same for murder, adultery, slander, lying, and forgetting to empty the catbox? And if not, then doctrinally why not? Or why?

Arsenios

[lee_merrill]

Sorry - Augustine is a Father of the Latin Church... And then only when he was later rediscovered when Rome tried to take over the Church of Christ...

Well, you didn't say Greek Fathers! How about some Origen, then?

Origen, Commentary on Romans 5:9

The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit.

© source where applicable

What is not assumed by Christ of man is not healed/restored/transformed by Him...

But would this not imply that Jesus had to not only have a fallen nature, but also to have actually sinned? In order to redeem sins? And it seems C.S. Lewis' reply here is pertinent, Jesus need not be "all like us" in order to redeem us:

C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

“I have heard some people complain that if Jesus was God as well as man, then His suffering and death lose all value in their eyes, ‘because it must have been so easy for him’… In one sense of course, those who make it are right. They have even understated their own case. The perfect submission, the perfect suffering, the perfect death were not only easier to Jesus because He was God, but were possible only because He was God. But surely that is a very odd reason for not accepting them?… That advantage—call it ‘unfair’ if you like—is the only reason why he can be of any use to me. To what will you look for help if you will not look to that which is stronger than yourself?

© source where applicable

"Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens." (Heb. 7:26)

If Christ did not take upon Himself our fallen human nature in His Incarnation, then He did not die for us, and we cannot partake in His Resurrection...

Now I need a Scriptural basis for this conclusion.

Lee: But I think "in iniquity" and "in sin" quite naturally can be "sinful" (so did the NIV translators), no modification of the text is occurring. Certainly there are other possible meanings, but I think these the most likely ones.

Arsenios: ... he is describing, together with his confession of difficulties from his youth, how he even began in his mother's difficulties - eg sins...

But why is this the more natural translation? The context is focused throughout on David's sins, and his sinfulness, arguing for a similar interpretation here.

With that idea firmly in your grip, read this literal translation of Romans 5:12:

Rom_5:12

Wherefore,
just as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death by [that] sin;
and so death passed unto all men,
upon which [death] all [men] have sinned:

Yes, now this is a rather unusual translation, where might this be found in a commentary or a church father? Or (more to the point) where is this point clearly made in Scripture?

Paul qualifies as a Church Father! :-)

And in Greek, too!

Blessings,
Lee

[RBerman]

What does your doctrine have a person DO about their sins? Is it the same for murder, adultery, slander, lying, and forgetting to empty the catbox? And if not, then doctrinally why not? Or why?

We confess all our sins and know that they are covered by the blood of Christ. We may need to make restitution for the way those sins have affected other people as well, to be reconciled to our brothers.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

We confess all our sins and know that they are covered by the blood of Christ. We may need to make restitution for the way those sins have affected other people as well, to be reconciled to our brothers.

To WHOM do you confess them all? Do you claim to even KNOW all your sins? And then do you just KNOW that they are COVERED by Christ's blood IF confessed? Or even if NOT confessed? So that confession and knowing you are covered, and not repentance, is the basis of your doctrine?

Arsenios