No forgiveness after death?

[Don80]

I've been reading Rob Bell's book "Love Wins", and while I think he raises some good issues, one particularly struck a chord with me.

Historically Christians have believed that when we die we face judgement, that there is no possibility of repentance after death (Heb 9:27). This has always bothered me. What are we to make of a person who is genuinely convinced that Christianity is not true? They were maybe raised by atheists, taught evolution explains life, religion is bad etc, and they never got to hear the truth about Jesus. Seconds after they die, they realise that they were wrong. For the first time they have an opportunity to repent. Why is that moment of death final? Why can't someone who has died receive forgiveness? If it is God's will that all be saved (1 Tim 2:4) then does God not get what God wants? Does Jesus' sacrifice only have an effect in this life?

I'm interested in what you guys think...

[Soyeong]

Hello and welcome to TWeb.

I think God judges people according to what they do with what they know. The other thing is that God wants us to do His will here and now, not on our deathbed, and not after we're already dead. If God allowed people to repent after they were dead, that would just open the door to people to do whatever they want in this life and just "repent" when the time comes. At that point, it's more of an apology than a repentance anyway.

[micah719]

Depends on what "all" means in the text. Similar to the various and widely different meanings of "world" in Scripture. Bell is not a Christian.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Joh 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.

What are we to make of a person who is genuinely convinced that Christianity is not true?

Joh 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Joh 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Joh 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
Joh 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
Joh 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
Joh 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Joh 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
Joh 3:23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
Joh 3:24 For John was not yet cast into prison.
Joh 3:25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
Joh 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
Joh 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Joh 3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Joh 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
Joh 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

[Jedidiah]

I prefer to trust God to handle that.

[RBerman]

I've been reading Rob Bell's book "Love Wins", and while I think he raises some good issues, one particularly struck a chord with me.

Historically Christians have believed that when we die we face judgement, that there is no possibility of repentance after death (Heb 9:27). This has always bothered me. What are we to make of a person who is genuinely convinced that Christianity is not true? They were maybe raised by atheists, taught evolution explains life, religion is bad etc, and they never got to hear the truth about Jesus. Seconds after they die, they realise that they were wrong. For the first time they have an opportunity to repent. Why is that moment of death final? Why can't someone who has died receive forgiveness? If it is God's will that all be saved (1 Tim 2:4) then does God not get what God wants? Does Jesus' sacrifice only have an effect in this life?

I'm interested in what you guys think...

I think that Rob Bell is really good at framing questions that make people think he's actually offering a Biblical argument, when he's not, because he can't. The Bible never gives an example of a post-death conversion, never gives good reason to think that such a thing happens. Bell's argument really boils down to, "Here's what I would do if I were God..." which is a really dangerous place to be.

[Bill the Cat]

And let's not forget the parable of the rich man and Lazarus where Abraham says "none can cross from there to here"

[Thoughtful Monk]

I think that Rob Bell is really good at framing questions that make people think he's actually offering a Biblical argument, when he's not, because he can't. The Bible never gives an example of a post-death conversion, never gives good reason to think that such a thing happens. Bell's argument really boils down to, "Here's what I would do if I were God..." which is a really dangerous place to be.

It is better to accept God's forgiveness while alive and then find out there is a chance after death, than not accepts God's forgiveness while alive and then find out after death there is no hope of forgiveness.

Bell may have to account for every lost soul who listened to his teaching and then after death discovered Bell was wrong.

[KingsGambit]

Bell may have to account for every lost soul who listened to his teaching and then after death discovered Bell was wrong.

I also fear the OP here may have to account for his profile linking to what appears to possibly be a personal testimony claiming that homosexuality is not a sin.

[gary cook]

I normally never preach this ! But i believe after a person is in hell suffering for a long time! They will most at least repent and want Jesus christ in there lives as LORD ! But i preach salvation is Now !not after we leave these bodies!
Dan_12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
I do not like preaching it because i not 100% sure! But salvation is a Free gift for any and all! We do nothing for it . But accept what He already did and Him as Lord !which He is already ! Has nothing to do how good or bad we live in the flesh ! It a One on One Relationship and is No one else Business! Has nothing to do with religions or churches here or anything thing or anyone else ! It a true LOVE story! between a perfect Father [our creator] ans Us as his child !
No Reason for any too go to Hell!
2Co_4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
It a free Perfect Gift ! we too nothing to get it! We just accept his gospel as truth and Him as LORD from our Heart [Spirit]

[Dee Dee Warren]

Arminianism run amok.

[Dee Dee Warren]

I think that Rob Bell is really good at framing questions that make people think he's actually offering a Biblical argument, when he's not, because he can't. The Bible never gives an example of a post-death conversion, never gives good reason to think that such a thing happens. Bell's argument really boils down to, "Here's what I would do if I were God..." which is a really dangerous place to be.

Rob Bell is barfilcious.

[Rushing Jaws]

I normally never preach this ! But i believe after a person is in hell suffering for a long time! They will most at least repent and want Jesus christ in there lives as LORD ! But i preach salvation is Now !not after we leave these bodies!
Dan_12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
I do not like preaching it because i not 100% sure! But salvation is a Free gift for any and all! We do nothing for it . But accept what He already did and Him as Lord !which He is already ! Has nothing to do how good or bad we live in the flesh ! It a One on One Relationship and is No one else Business! Has nothing to do with religions or churches here or anything thing or anyone else ! It a true LOVE story! between a perfect Father [our creator] ans Us as his child !
No Reason for any too go to Hell!
2Co_4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
It a free Perfect Gift ! we too nothing to get it! We just accept his gospel as truth and Him as LORD from our Heart [Spirit]

## But supposing they do not want to repent, so cannot repent ? Rejection of God leaves its own "scars" on the inner man; this is one reason why the death-bed repentances people are said to promise themselves are so unwise. We never *deserve* the grace to repent - & one day, we shall sin our last sin: & it may lead to Hell. We must never presume on the Mercy of God - on the contrary, His Mercy & Grace are given us, not that we may be rich in sin, but that we may depart from it as the abomination that it is.

"No Reason for any too go to Hell!"

## Who said going to Hell is rational ? It's a crazy choice to make - that doesn't mean it's not chosen. If people hate God, it would be appalling cruelty to "compel them to come in" to Heaven; Heaven would be a Hell of Hells to those who hate God. Luther makes this point somewhere.

People seem never to consider that it is possible, and wrong, to hate God - but to overlook this is unrealistic. Hell is what we, left to ourselves, deserve - it took the Blood of God, and the humiliation & degradation of God, & the Death of God, to save us from it. No lesser price than that would suffice. The Crucifixion would be pointless & barbaric, if Hell were not a genuine possibility that we are capable of choosing. If we choose damnation, that is not despite God's Will as though it were possible to thwart His Will, but because of our sinful decisions. He is not to blame - we are.

[Thoughtful Monk]

And let's not forget the parable of the rich man and Lazarus where Abraham says "none can cross from there to here"

and the other part of that story where Abraham says, "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them...If they won't listen to them, they won't believe even if someone rose from the dead." I think this points at if you won't believe in this life, even an encounter with God after you're dead won't change you either. It sure seems when you physically die, any chance to change is over.

[Livelystone]

And let's not forget the parable of the rich man and Lazarus where Abraham says "none can cross from there to here"

Hello Bill

We also know that Abraham said that none would be persuaded to repent even though somebody rose from the dead, yet we know that there are those through the resurrection of Jesus have been persuaded to repent and count on the resurrection of Jesus Christ to be true.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Personally I believe there will be an opportunity for those to repent during the resurrection and for them we have the law the 2nd Passover is provided for those who missed the 1st Passover. We know that we are not limited to a special time of the year to attend the Passover and receive blessings from it, consequently it seems logical to me that the 2nd Passover would allow for those who never heard of the story of Christ to be given a chance.

That is not to imply that I believe as some universalist believe that everything is hunky-dory and everybody goes to heaven immediately upon their death. Jesus himself talked about believers and unbelievers receiving their rewards at the same time in the context that these believers were not being left unpunished for sins they did on earth even though they were believers.

Find a job yet?

Blessings

Doug

[RBerman]

Personally I believe there will be an opportunity for those to repent during the resurrection and for them we have the law the 2nd Passover is provided for those who missed the 1st Passover. We know that we are not limited to a special time of the year to attend the Passover and receive blessings from it, consequently it seems logical to me that the 2nd Passover would allow for those who never heard of the story of Christ to be given a chance.

That doesn't follow at all. The Passover was a yearly ritual. The call of the gospel is a constant call, though. If you don't accept it one minute, your "second chance" is... the following minute. And the one after that. Everyone in Hell has had not one chance, but millions of chances to be faithful to God. The Bible never compares Passover to the call to faith in Christ in the manner you suggest.