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Thread: The Logic of Universal Salvation

  1. #11
    tWebber Anomaly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    God punishes the wicked. He does not save them, nor does He punish His righteous with them. Therefore, universalism is bunk.
    "Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." (Jn 2:19)

    Jesus destroys temples and rebuilds them in three days.

    Do you see my point? I argue that the Gen 18 account is a metaphor woven into Scripture by God to preface a larger picture of salvation not found in a literal reading of Scripture. In order to understand how the allegorical modifies the context of the literal the metaphors that build the allegory have to be understood and either granted warrant for belief or sufficiently refuted to deny it. I agree that God punishes the wicked. Gen 18 identifies something bigger than this--God doesn't merely punish, He destroys Sodom and the Sodomites. He did not destroy the righteous with them. These facts are part of what comprises the metaphor.

    To avoid confusion in case this thread goes anywhere, I use metaphor in two ways: 1) common or loose usage to indicate passages that are figurative language, and, 2), as distinct, unified parts of a larger, logical allegory or allegorical system. The second would be similar to linguistic structure, where words are parts of sentences (or sentences of paragraphs, etc.).

  2. #12
    Dept. of Redundancy Dept. Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anomaly View Post
    I'd like solid, rational critiques please, no "shoot and run" opinions.
    That you don't like the responses you're getting does not in any way mean they're not solid, rational critiques.

    Jesus came to seek and to save those who were lost, and declared "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of Godís one and only Son."

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  3. #13
    Dept. of Redundancy Dept. Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anomaly View Post
    "Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." (Jn 2:19)

    Jesus destroys temples and rebuilds them in three days.
    Are you aware that you quoted Jesus as using temple - singular - then you morphed that into temples - plural?

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  4. Amen Jedidiah, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  5. #14
    Thanks Old Man... Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anomaly View Post
    "Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." (Jn 2:19)
    Referring to the resurrection.

    Jesus destroys temples and rebuilds them in three days.
    No. The Pharisees destroyed the temple (His body in context), and He raised what they unrighteously destroyed.

    Do you see my point?
    Yes. And your error.

    I argue that the Gen 18 account is a metaphor woven into Scripture by God to preface a larger picture of salvation not found in a literal reading of Scripture.
    Oh, it truly is. The righteous are saved and taken out of the wicked generation before it is destroyed.

    In order to understand how the allegorical modifies the context of the literal the metaphors that build the allegory have to be understood and either granted warrant for belief or sufficiently refuted to deny it. I agree that God punishes the wicked. Gen 18 identifies something bigger than this--God doesn't merely punish, He destroys Sodom and the Sodomites. He did not destroy the righteous with them. These facts are part of what comprises the metaphor.
    Correct. The wicked are destroyed and never heard from again. Their punishment is swift and final. Therefore, universalism is refuted.
    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 07-18-2017 at 07:07 PM.


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  6. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  7. #15
    Theologyweb's Official Grandfather Jedidiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anomaly View Post
    Quoting Bible verses to support a favored doctrine is not a legitimate response to a logical argument. The argument I posted uses Scripture--as do most discussions of theology--to support a logical claim. Most discussion on theology boards never satisfy tensions because all folks do is present their interpretation or doctrine as "proof" that the other guy's doctrine is false. This is obviously circular and serve no purpose....if it did, doctrinal tensions would be resolved and we could all turn out the lights, theologically speaking, and go home
    However in this case you were given verses that clearly and completely destroy your argument. If not explain why not.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

  8. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  9. #16
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anomaly View Post


    Quoting Bible verses to support a favored doctrine is not a legitimate response to a logical argument. The argument I posted uses Scripture--as do most discussions of theology--to support a logical claim. Most discussion on theology boards never satisfy tensions because all folks do is present their interpretation or doctrine as "proof" that the other guy's doctrine is false. This is obviously circular and serve no purpose....if it did, doctrinal tensions would be resolved and we could all turn out the lights, theologically speaking, and go home.


    Did you not read or understand this question in the op or the argument that followed it? It ultimately shows that both the Annihilationist and traditional eternal hell doctrines are logically incoherent as both violate the perfection of God's justice, and only the salvation of all is able to resolve the problem.

    I specifically asked for reasonable, rational critiques; I don't think asking for this exceeds what is proper for theological discussion.
    Yeah I understood it. But I responded with a logical argument and you posted your little "if you can't..." diatribe and then someone else posted giving scripture to back up their claim and you did the same thing. Then you just snipped out my logical argument and questions in my last post and whined again.

    Sounds to me like you don't really have an argument or defense of your claims.
    Last edited by Sparko; 07-18-2017 at 06:58 PM.

  10. Amen Cerebrum123, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  11. #17
    tWebber Anomaly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    That you don't like the responses you're getting does not in any way mean they're not solid, rational critiques.

    Jesus came to seek and to save those who were lost, and declared "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of Godís one and only Son."
    True, my dislike doesn't equate superficial responses. It's the superficial responses that do it.

    And thanks for quoting me your doctrine Cow Poke. Would you be interested in taking a stab at the op?

  12. Amen Charles amen'd this post.
  13. #18
    tWebber Anomaly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Are you aware that you quoted Jesus as using temple - singular - then you morphed that into temples - plural?
    No I wasn't. It's called a "typo", not morphology, in my neck of the woods. Thanks for letting me know.

  14. #19
    tWebber Anomaly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Referring to the resurrection.



    No. The Pharisees destroyed the temple (His body in context), and He raised what they unrighteously destroyed.


    Yes. And your error.



    Oh, it truly is. The righteous are saved and taken out of the wicked generation before it is destroyed.



    Correct. The wicked are destroyed and never heard from again. Their punishment is swift and final. Therefore, universalism is refuted.
    I'm assuming you either don't have the capability or desire to specifically critique the op. Don't feel badly. No one else has been able to either. Thanks for your drive by and all the best to you.

  15. Amen Charles amen'd this post.
  16. #20
    Dept. of Redundancy Dept. Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anomaly View Post
    No I wasn't. It's called a "typo", not morphology, in my neck of the woods. Thanks for letting me know.
    It makes a significant difference to your argument.

    Here is what you said...

    Quote Originally Posted by Anomaly View Post
    "Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." (Jn 2:19)

    Jesus destroys temples and rebuilds them in three days.
    And you're being a wee big dishonest -- "temples" instead of "temple" could be a typo, but "them" instead of "it" (temples vs temple) is not a typo. It's an error in your "logic".
    Last edited by Cow Poke; 07-18-2017 at 08:40 PM.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  17. Amen Cerebrum123, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.

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