Yet another feathered dinosaur

[rogue06]

Jorge has been at it again, claiming that feathered dinosaurs are a fraud:

*******************************************

Not to mention the fact that many of the frauds were perpetrated
by the Evo-Faithful themselves. Haeckle, Piltdown,
feathered dinosaurs, fabricated data ... the list goes on and on ...

I challenged him on this twice

"Feathered dinosaurs"? Again Jorge... really? Is this why you claimed earlier that Archaeopteryx is a fraud?

The fact is that a whole slew of feathered dinosaurs have turned up in the last couple of decades that there really is no point in trying to pretend that they don't exist. They range from the tiny four-winged Microraptor on up to the 8 meter (26¼') long Gigantoraptor erlianensis and the 9 meter (30') long Yutyrannus huali.

Denying that they existed makes no more sense than continuing to claim that there is insufficient evidence for extra-solar planets or naturally forming stars.

In spite of all the accumulating evidence do you still want to pretend that some dinosaurs didn't have feathers (scientists have actually been able to determine the color of some of these feathers)?

Attachment 77578
"Non-existent feathers" on Anchiornis huxleyi



Attachment 77579
Close up of the "non-existent" downy feathers on Sinosauropteryx

But like his claim that Archaeopteryx was likewise a fraud he hasn't directly responded.

But now we have a new feathered dinosaur for him to deny and this one has implications for most dinosaurs possibly being feathered. I'll explain by posting the entry on this I intend on putting in the Fossil Finds thread:




A spectacularly well-preserved and complete, as well as altogether articulated, 150 myo (Late Jurassic) fossil skeleton of a very young, bushy-tailed fossil theropod dinosaur was found lying on its right side and excavated from a limestone quarry close to the municipality of Painten in the northern portion of Lower Bavaria in southern Germany.

The find represents a new genus and species of megalosauroid theropod and was named Sciurumimus albersdoerferi with the first or genus name meaning "squirrel-mimic" in Latin due to the afore-mentioned bushy tail. The fossil skeleton represents the most complete (at 98% intact) predatory dinosaur found in Europe to date.

This youngster, probably not much older than a hatchling, was only about 71cm (28") long at the time of his death. Had it lived long enough to reach adulthood he probably would have been roughly 6 meters (20') long, although some types of meglosaur grew up to be only 2 to 3 metres (6½' to just under 10') long.

When the fossil is viewed under ultraviolet light the researchers could clearly see remains of Sciurumimus' skin and feathers, which showed up as luminous patches around the fossilized skeleton. Remains of a filamentous or down-like plumage were preserved over parts of its front mid-section, back and especially on its tail.

The researchers think that Sciurumimus' entire body may well have been covered in feathers.

While palaeontologists have recognized more than 30 types of feathered dinosaur since the discovery of Sinosauropteryx in 1996, what makes this an important discovery is that while evidence strongly indicates that some lineages of coelursaurs later evolved into modern-day birds, megalosaurs were around long before coelursaurs arrived on the scene and are on a different branch of dinosaur evolution.

This is the first evidence for feathers so far down at the base of the theropod's evolutionary tree.

IOW, according to the researchers, Sciurumimus represents "the first clear evidence" that feathers predated the bird-like dinosaurs and that feathered dinosaurs were likely more prevalent than had been previously thought and could very well have been the norm rather than the exception.

According to the researchers, this clearly indicates to them that dinosaurs' common ancestor had feathers, which passed the trait on to each branch of the dinosaur family tree.

As the leader of the research team, palaeontologist Oliver W.M. Rauhut of the Bavarian State Collections of Palaeontology and Geology in Germany noted, "Sciurumimus is much more basal within the dinosaur family tree and thus indicates that all predatory dinosaurs had feathers."

Critics have pointed out that while the feathers of early coelursaurs might look similar to those of Sciurumimus, it's still possible that this trait evolved independently, and not from a common ancestor.

OTOH, traces of feathers have been previously reported on non-theropod dinosaurs such as primitive ornithischian ("bird-hipped") dinosaur such as along the tail of the beaked, quadrupedal herbivore Psittacosaurus as well as along the vertebral columns of Tianyulong. This would also tend to support the idea that feathers appeared very early in dinosaur evolution.

Whatever is determined it appears that the discovery of Sciurumimus will help to challenge the old, traditional view of dinosaurs being, as the researchers put it, "overgrown lizards" since Sciurumimus clearly demonstrates that featherd dinosaurs are more wide-spread than previously thought. Whether they are found on most dinosaurs as the team believes remains to be seen.



Further reading:

Exceptionally preserved juvenile megalosauroid theropod dinosaur with filamentous integument from the Late Jurassic of Germany Abstract

Rise of the feathered dinosaurs

All Predatory Dinosaurs May Have Sported Fluffy Feathers

"Beautiful" Squirrel-Tail Dinosaur Fossil Upends Feather Theory

Feathered Dinosaurs May Have Been The Norm

Feathers may have been common on dinosaurs

Paleontologists now say all dinosaurs probably had feathers

Spectacularly Preserved Fossil Suggests Most Dinosaurs Were Feathered

New fossil suggests dinosaurs may have all been hairy

Newly discovered dinosaur implies greater prevalence of feathers


Images can be found in the Fossil Finds thread.

[USIncognito]

But Piltdown was a fraud! That means this one could be one toooooooo

Poison the well!

Poison the well!

Poison the well!

[The Moonshield]

"They're not frauds!" you say. Well then, how do you explain this?

fossilmadeinchina.jpg

[rogue06]

"They're not frauds!" you say. Well then, how do you explain this?

fossilmadeinchina.jpg

This one is from Germany. Back to photoshop for you I guess

[Jorge]

Jorge has been at it again, claiming that feathered dinosaurs are a fraud:



I challenged him on this twice

But like his claim that Archaeopteryx was likewise a fraud he hasn't directly responded.

But now we have a new feathered dinosaur for him to deny and this one has implications for most dinosaurs possibly being feathered. I'll explain by posting the entry on this I intend on putting in the Fossil Finds thread:




A spectacularly well-preserved and complete, as well as altogether articulated, 150 myo (Late Jurassic) fossil skeleton of a very young, bushy-tailed fossil theropod dinosaur was found lying on its right side and excavated from a limestone quarry close to the municipality of Painten in the northern portion of Lower Bavaria in southern Germany.

The find represents a new genus and species of megalosauroid theropod and was named Sciurumimus albersdoerferi with the first or genus name meaning "squirrel-mimic" in Latin due to the afore-mentioned bushy tail. The fossil skeleton represents the most complete (at 98% intact) predatory dinosaur found in Europe to date.

This youngster, probably not much older than a hatchling, was only about 71cm (28") long at the time of his death. Had it lived long enough to reach adulthood he probably would have been roughly 6 meters (20') long, although some types of meglosaur grew up to be only 2 to 3 metres (6½' to just under 10') long.

When the fossil is viewed under ultraviolet light the researchers could clearly see remains of Sciurumimus' skin and feathers, which showed up as luminous patches around the fossilized skeleton. Remains of a filamentous or down-like plumage were preserved over parts of its front mid-section, back and especially on its tail.

The researchers think that Sciurumimus' entire body may well have been covered in feathers.

While palaeontologists have recognized more than 30 types of feathered dinosaur since the discovery of Sinosauropteryx in 1996, what makes this an important discovery is that while evidence strongly indicates that some lineages of coelursaurs later evolved into modern-day birds, megalosaurs were around long before coelursaurs arrived on the scene and are on a different branch of dinosaur evolution.

This is the first evidence for feathers so far down at the base of the theropod's evolutionary tree.

IOW, according to the researchers, Sciurumimus represents "the first clear evidence" that feathers predated the bird-like dinosaurs and that feathered dinosaurs were likely more prevalent than had been previously thought and could very well have been the norm rather than the exception.

According to the researchers, this clearly indicates to them that dinosaurs' common ancestor had feathers, which passed the trait on to each branch of the dinosaur family tree.

As the leader of the research team, palaeontologist Oliver W.M. Rauhut of the Bavarian State Collections of Palaeontology and Geology in Germany noted, "Sciurumimus is much more basal within the dinosaur family tree and thus indicates that all predatory dinosaurs had feathers."

Critics have pointed out that while the feathers of early coelursaurs might look similar to those of Sciurumimus, it's still possible that this trait evolved independently, and not from a common ancestor.

OTOH, traces of feathers have been previously reported on non-theropod dinosaurs such as primitive ornithischian ("bird-hipped") dinosaur such as along the tail of the beaked, quadrupedal herbivore Psittacosaurus as well as along the vertebral columns of Tianyulong. This would also tend to support the idea that feathers appeared very early in dinosaur evolution.

Whatever is determined it appears that the discovery of Sciurumimus will help to challenge the old, traditional view of dinosaurs being, as the researchers put it, "overgrown lizards" since Sciurumimus clearly demonstrates that featherd dinosaurs are more wide-spread than previously thought. Whether they are found on most dinosaurs as the team believes remains to be seen.



Further reading:

Exceptionally preserved juvenile megalosauroid theropod dinosaur with filamentous integument from the Late Jurassic of Germany Abstract

Rise of the feathered dinosaurs

All Predatory Dinosaurs May Have Sported Fluffy Feathers

"Beautiful" Squirrel-Tail Dinosaur Fossil Upends Feather Theory

Feathered Dinosaurs May Have Been The Norm

Feathers may have been common on dinosaurs

Paleontologists now say all dinosaurs probably had feathers

Spectacularly Preserved Fossil Suggests Most Dinosaurs Were Feathered

New fossil suggests dinosaurs may have all been hairy

Newly discovered dinosaur implies greater prevalence of feathers


Images can be found in the Fossil Finds thread.

*******************************************************

I'm convinced that you don't just 'appear' to be -- you are the genuine article!
[don't take any bows -- that wasn't a compliment]

There have indeed been frauds involving "feathered" dinosaurs. You know this.
My post did not say that ALL are frauds. Some, I am sure, are nothing more
than a misinterpretation of the data. E.g., someone sees some "fuzz" and
calls it "feathers".

Now get back to your Reading Comprehension for Dummies class - you need it !!!

Jorge

[Jorge]

"They're not frauds!" you say. Well then, how do you explain this?

fossilmadeinchina.jpg

Yeah, I saw one with "Made in Mexico" and another with "Made in Taiwan"
There is a great deal of evidence proving that these things are fakes.

Bwahahahahahaha

Jorge

[rogue06]

*******************************************************

I'm convinced that you don't just 'appear' to be -- you are the genuine article!
[don't take any bows -- that wasn't a compliment]

Considering the source

There have indeed been frauds involving "feathered" dinosaurs. You know this.
My post did not say that ALL are frauds.

There has been one fraud (singular not plural) that didn't stand up to scientific scrutiny but a popular magazine decided to leap with it much to their embarrassment.

Some, I am sure, are nothing more
than a misinterpretation of the data. E.g., someone sees some "fuzz" and
calls it "feathers".

Your evidence?

But let's look at this closer. You think "some" have been misidentified. That implies you think that most have not.

Do you think these are frauds, actual feathered dinosaurs or a mixture of the two?

If the former (most are frauds) can you list some of them which you think are fakes/frauds/hoaxes...?

Do you still maintain that Archaeopteryx is a fraud or did you mean Archaeoraptor and made a mistake you're loath to admit it?

[Jorge]

Considering the source


There has been one fraud (singular not plural) that didn't stand up to scientific scrutiny but a popular magazine decided to leap with it much to their embarrassment.


Your evidence?

But let's look at this closer. You think "some" have been misidentified. That implies you think that most have not.

Do you think these are frauds, actual feathered dinosaurs or a mixture of the two?

If the former (most are frauds) can you list some of them which you think are fakes/frauds/hoaxes...?

Do you still maintain that Archaeopteryx is a fraud or did you mean Archaeoraptor and made a mistake you're loath to admit it?

***************************************************

Your reading comprehension ability is amongst the poorest I have ever seen.

What you do is insert whatever you want to be true into what people write.

I said "some" and I MEANT 'some'.
You know, just like when God wrote 'day' and He MEANT 'day'.

There are frauds, there are misinterpretations, and there are cases where
it may be interpreted as any of several things but, of course, they choose
to interpret it as 'feathers' because that furthers the Evo-Faith, gets them
on the cover of National Geographic and secures next year's funding,
tenure or even some Evo-Faithful recognition.

What do you think prompted the Piltdown hoax? You think he just wanted
to play a cute joke? Don't be ridiculous! It was all about promoting
Evolutionism and in the process obtaining fame and fortune.

Get a clue, R06.

Jorge

[rogue06]

***************************************************

Your reading comprehension ability is amongst the poorest I have ever seen.

What you do is insert whatever you want to be true into what people write.

I said "some" and I MEANT 'some'.
You know, just like when God wrote 'day' and He MEANT 'day'.

There are frauds, there are misinterpretations, and there are cases where
it may be interpreted as any of several things but, of course, they choose
to interpret it as 'feathers' because that furthers the Evo-Faith, gets them
on the cover of National Geographic and secures next year's funding,
tenure or even some Evo-Faithful recognition.

You did your infamous Jorge Hustle and managed to avoid answering any of the questions.

You avoided saying whether you think they're all frauds or misidentified or if some might be in fact be feathered dinosaur.

You have repeated that there are frauds. Name some of them (multiple examples needed since you keep insisting there are frauds).

You still have not provided a scintilla of supporting evidence that Archaeopteryx is a fraud or admitted you made a mistake and meant Archaeoraptor.

And the National Geographic debacle... They made the mistake of circumventing the scientific community (what other group does that? ) and ended up with egg on their face. Interestingly one of the two fossils cobbled together into the non-existent Archaeoraptor was from the previously unknown four-winged Microraptor so there was still an important discovery there -- though not the one National Geographic hyped.

What do you think prompted the Piltdown hoax?

Nationalism and presumptions. That is why it is used as an example to scientists to go with where the evidence leads rather than where you want it to go.

[rogue06]

OTOH, traces of feathers have been previously reported on non-theropod dinosaurs such as primitive ornithischian ("bird-hipped") dinosaur such as along the tail of the beaked, quadrupedal herbivore Psittacosaurus as well as along the vertebral columns of Tianyulong. This would also tend to support the idea that feathers appeared very early in dinosaur evolution.

I was informed today that "Lance," the mummified Triceratops, has quill knobs on sections of preserved skin of the back indicating Triceratops also might have had feathers.

[Xru]

Hmmm .. seems to me that you once told me that if they ever found a dinosaur with feathers on it that would disprove TOE.

Now don't jump on me losers. This is just want R06 said or maybe it was Sparko. Maybe you were joking R06?

I'm sure you have a comment here.

[rogue06]

Hmmm .. seems to me that you once told me that if they ever found a dinosaur with feathers on it that would disprove TOE.

Now don't jump on me losers. This is just want R06 said or maybe it was Sparko. Maybe you were joking R06?

I'm sure you have a comment here.

No. It was if they ever found a dinosaur with fur.

[Sparko]

No. It was if they ever found a dinosaur with fur.

and I posted this:

article-0-0596462B000005DC-599_468x409.jpg

[Xru]

No. It was if they ever found a dinosaur with fur.

Oh . . . . okay, ha ha ha ha ha ah. Ya . . . now I remember. Too funny . . lol.