The Possibility of Universal Atonement

[Mr Arkadin]

I am assuming in this thread that sin needs to be punished by God and it is done so in the cross of Christ who was our substitute- I am not interested in debating this point.

My interest though is in how is it possible for atonement to be made for more than one man (I also don't wish to discuss whether the atonement is limited for the elect- just in how can one man save more than one man)? It's perfectly understandable how one man could take the place of another but how could one man take the place of all men? Is it in that Jesus took the amount of punishment due to the whole world on the cross? That seems to reduce the personal factor in salvation and seems to turn it into salvation from liquidation by a sugar daddy. Also it would then seem to be possible that if we beamed a pre-fall Adam to the cross that he could save the whole world. Any other ideas?

[Phat8594]

It's perfectly understandable how one man could take the place of another but how could one man take the place of all men?

To be fair, Jesus was / is much more than just a man.

[RBerman]

As Phat noted, Jesus is uniquely qualified, being not just simply "one man" but rather being a perfect man of infinite worth because he is also God. Furthermore, such questions are best answered within the ancient kinship framework whereby the leader"federally" represented the whole of the people in negotiations with other parties.

[goldie08]

First of all, I do not accept the notion of sin or evil or punishment or substitutes for atonement of the elect et al, but that is subject for another discussion. For now we can sort through the question of how does one man save more than one man. The answer is simple enough when seen from the proper perspective.

To begin with, "What is God?" We can accept that God is EVERYTHING, All Knowledge, Wisdom, and Love, Everpresent -- known as the Divine Presence, or Universal Intelligence, or Cosmic Consciousness. The Bible states, "We live and move and have our being in Him" which means we live in this sea of consciousness which some call God; whichever name is used does not change the fact.

God created man in His own image and likeness, which includes you and me, and that image is perfect because God IS perfection. Our centre of awareness is defined as the soul-mind, this divine spark within us. God is the Cosmic Consciousness and is being expressed through mankind as individualized consciousness, also known as Spirit, or the Christ Mind. Hence every babe that is born into this world is an expression of the divine Source, for it is God Who is living in His Creation.

It is the Christ Mind within each and everyone of us that will guide us and become realized as our true state of being. Remember, it is your soul that has a body, not your body that has a soul. Therefore, the Christ Mind - the higher Self - is what transforms mankind. The Master Jesus is a representative of the Christ Consciousness - a fully realized soul - and he spoke from the Christ centre, not merely as a man.

"Behold the Kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17, v 21)

"Ye are Gods" (Psalm 82, v 6, and John 10, v 34)

Hope this helps.

[Mr Arkadin]

Arghh, I wish I could edit the OP.

I don't mean to say that Jesus was only a man, he's not, he's fully man and fully God. I'm trying understand whether it is the extent of the punishment or to whom the punishment was directed which makes it possible.

@RBerman,

So you'd say that since Jesus is God then any punishment whatsoever is sufficient to atone for the whole world since he is of infinite worth?

This seems problematic since it implies that the required punishment differs depending of who is being punished not on the severity of the crime which IMO undermines the justice of God.

[RBerman]

Arghh, I wish I could edit the OP.

I don't mean to say that Jesus was only a man, he's not, he's fully man and fully God. I'm trying understand whether it is the extent of the punishment or to whom the punishment was directed which makes it possible.

@RBerman,

So you'd say that since Jesus is God then any punishment whatsoever is sufficient to atone for the whole world since he is of infinite worth?

This seems problematic since it implies that the required punishment differs depending of who is being punished not on the severity of the crime which IMO undermines the justice of God.

Why does that undermine the justice of God? From where does your opinion arise? Any parent knows that the same punishment has different ramifications for different children.

[Mr Arkadin]

Why does that undermine the justice of God? From where does your opinion arise? Any parent knows that the same punishment has different ramifications for different children.

That's true although a parent's punishment purely restorative to bring the child back into proper relations with his parents whereas God's punishment is retributive for those outside his family (i.e. the unbelievers) which would be everyone apart from the cross. Also the restorative form of parental punishment is predicated on the fact that God is the true and final fair judge. Fairness is being judged proportionally on your actions (taking into account intentions). So if I deliberately murder someone and you deliberately murder someone else then the punishment ought to be the same as the crime is essentially the same. Even though it's taken completely taken out of context an eye for an eye is the only defensible ultimate standard for justice.

[RBerman]

That's true although a parent's punishment purely restorative to bring the child back into proper relations with his parents whereas God's punishment is retributive for those outside his family (i.e. the unbelievers) which would be everyone apart from the cross. Also the restorative form of parental punishment is predicated on the fact that God is the true and final fair judge. Fairness is being judged proportionally on your actions (taking into account intentions). So if I deliberately murder someone and you deliberately murder someone else then the punishment ought to be the same as the crime is essentially the same. Even though it's taken completely taken out of context an eye for an eye is the only defensible ultimate standard for justice.

1) "Ultimately defensible" according to whom? You? We look to see what God has done to know what is right. We don't come to God with preconceptions of what justice must look like. If God says that the death of Jesus is of sufficient worth to cover the sins of all men, what grounds do you or I have for saying, "No, it can't be"? You appear to be arguing that since you think it would be wrong for God to do X, that therefore we must not believe that God would do X. That's not how Christians approach these topics. Instead, we discuss what the Bible says, which is that "Jesus would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad." (John 11:51b-52)

2) We do in fact have different laws for attacking different people. Someone who assaults the President, pars paribus, will get a much harsher sentence than someone who assaults a random citizen, because of the important office that the President holds. But as I said above, we should make our arguments based on Scripture.

What actual argument are you putting forth? You identify as a Christian. Do you think that Jesus didn't really die for our sins? Is it something that you've historically believed but are now doubting for some reason? What do the leaders of your church say when you bring your concerns to them? I don't know where you're coming from; a little background would be helpful.

[ttruscott]

Arghh, I wish I could edit the OP.

I don't mean to say that Jesus was only a man, he's not, he's fully man and fully God. I'm trying understand whether it is the extent of the punishment or to whom the punishment was directed which makes it possible.

@RBerman,

So you'd say that since Jesus is God then any punishment whatsoever is sufficient to atone for the whole world since he is of infinite worth?

This seems problematic since it implies that the required punishment differs depending of who is being punished not on the severity of the crime which IMO undermines the justice of God.

From OP:

My interest though is in how is it possible for atonement to be made for more than one man ... - just in how can one man save more than one man?

Jesus need only die once for the sins of the world due to the federal headship of Adam, that all sinners born on earth are IN him:1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die...

The federal headship of Adam wrongly (to my mind) attributes his sin to us as our original sin, (contra Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.)
our own decision to become evil in GOD's sight by our true free will choice in our pre-earthly existence.

The problem with having different punishments for different people (and not different sins) is reconciled in PCE in that it asserts that the first true free will decision we made by faith ie based on hope without proof, separated all of creation into two camps, those who accepted HIS purpose for their creation, (the sheep) and those who rejected HIS purpose for their creation, (the goats).

These new sheep were immediately given the free gift of election and the gospel promise of salvation if they should ever choose against HIS will,

while the goats were immediately prepared for damnation as eternally outside of HIS will and HIS love.

No dilema for us,

Peace, Ted

[Mr Arkadin]

What actual argument are you putting forth? You identify as a Christian. Do you think that Jesus didn't really die for our sins? Is it something that you've historically believed but are now doubting for some reason? What do the leaders of your church say when you bring your concerns to them? I don't know where you're coming from; a little background would be helpful.

Let's try and clear this up: I believe in the Triune God Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that Jesus was fully man and fully God and that he died for the sins of the whole world. I believe that the wages of sin is death and the only way to God is through Jesus. The unrepentant will be punished in Hell and the believer will spend eternity with God on the physical New Heavens and New Earth.

My original question was how does Jesus dying for the whole world work?

I understand how one man can stand in for one man e.g. I could die for you (assuming I was perfect) but could I die for more than one person? Essentially put is the reason Jesus can die for the whole world because of the extent of the punishment or because of to whom to punishment was rendered? And in both cases how is the personal element maintained (like me dying for you)? It seems contrary to God's personal dealings with man to make things happen by a strange corporate insurance policy.

The only argument I have made thus far is that punishment should be proportional citing an eye for an eye. Different punishments for the same crime (in principle I think there are same classes of crime) are wrong even if they presently exist- I know of no OT law which proscribes a different punishment for the same crime depending on who it is committed against. Further Genesis 9:6 indicates that ALL murderers should be executed

[RBerman]

My original question was how does Jesus dying for the whole world work? I understand how one man can stand in for one man e.g. I could die for you (assuming I was perfect) but could I die for more than one person? Essentially put is the reason Jesus can die for the whole world because of the extent of the punishment or because of to whom to punishment was rendered? And in both cases how is the personal element maintained (like me dying for you)? It seems contrary to God's personal dealings with man to make things happen by a strange corporate insurance policy.

The only argument I have made thus far is that punishment should be proportional citing an eye for an eye. Different punishments for the same crime (in principle I think there are same classes of crime) are wrong even if they presently exist- I know of no OT law which proscribes a different punishment for the same crime depending on who it is committed against. Further Genesis 9:6 indicates that ALL murderers should be executed

You're off on the wrong foot to ask how things would work for you. God did not ask you to die for the sins of the many; you are not qualified to die for the sins of the many. I recommend you read Anselm's Cur Deus Homo, which discusses how only Jesus was qualified for the work that he did. This was in fact the basis of the Christological debates of early church history. The church needed to know, "What kind of person is Jesus, that he could do the unique work he did to save us?" The answer was that Jesus had to be fully God, fully man, without mixture or confusion, a single person with two wills, and so on.

Really you're running up against the mystery of God's grace. Many cultures which have a strong sense of justice struggle with this topic. (On the other hand, our modern licentious Western society usually has more problems accepting God's holiness and justice, and thus doesn't see grace as really gracious.) How can it be good for God to forgive sins? Doesn't that violate his character? Wesley wrote some pretty strong words on the topic:

And can it be that I should gain
An interest in the Savior’s blood?
Died He for me, who caused His pain—
For me, who Him to death pursued?
Amazing love! How can it be,
That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?

’Tis mystery all: th’Immortal dies:
Who can explore His strange design?
In vain the firstborn seraph tries
To sound the depths of love divine.
’Tis mercy all! Let earth adore,
Let angel minds inquire no more.

He left His Father’s throne above
So free, so infinite His grace—
Emptied Himself of all but love,
And bled for Adam’s helpless race:
’Tis mercy all, immense and free,
For O my God, it found out me!

Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray—
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.

Still the small inward voice I hear,
That whispers all my sins forgiven;
Still the atoning blood is near,
That quenched the wrath of hostile Heaven.
I feel the life His wounds impart;
I feel the Savior in my heart.

No condemnation now I dread;
Jesus, and all in Him, is mine;
Alive in Him, my living Head,
And clothed in righteousness divine,
Bold I approach th’eternal throne,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own.

I'm still curious how the leaders of your church answered this question when you asked them.

[Mr Arkadin]

Thanks for the Anselm heads up.

I haven't asked my Church leaders yet as, to be fair, they do not strike me as very much interested in such topics framed in a theoretical manner. It's not something that is troubling me in an existential sense, I came to think more deeply about it when considering the importance of Jesus being the Second person of the Trinity in the cross and how that relates to his dual nature.