Prove to me that Islam is a religion of peace and love?

[Adrift]

I agree with you Adrift. That's why I have been doing what I can to study Islam, and from Islamic sources when I can. I do need to learn Arabic, and I know that they say that the Quran can't be understood without it. For that information I have usually asked a certain ex-Muslim who knows Arabic on these things. I do not think that Muslims are dumb, I don't think that they are unable to do apologetics, I DO find that many Muslims I have encountered, are ignorant of Islamic history, and even certain things that are considered to be "mainstream" Islamic doctrine. Now, if RBerman was simply playing "devil's advocate", then I don't think that he should have been saying that I am trying to tell Muslims what their own doctrine is, since he is not a Muslim.

Fair enough.

[lee_merrill]

... there is also one that many people overlook, and that is that the Quran itself calls for the killing of all non-Muslims.

Well, it does. "Those who are with [Allah] are hard against the unbelievers." (48:29)

and that Mohammed has(according to all available sources) been a leader of that very type of activity.

Well, he was.

Again, I am GLAD that there are Muslims who do NOT want to follow the example set by Mohammed...

Yes.

I am only saying that if they want to truly say that Islam is a religion of peace, they are fighting an uphill battle.

It seems this saying 'Islam is a religion of peace" is generally trying to reduce the fires of conflict. I agree with this aim! But making statements where the end justifies the means is not going to be effective--in the long run.

Islam is a religion of submission, that appears to me to be the heart of Islam. And a religion of works, there really is no peace for a Muslim until they make it to Paradise. So Islam is certainly not a religion of heart peace, of peace in the heart, even Mohammed ("peace be upon him", as Muslims pray for him to make it to Paradise whenever they mention his name) was not certain he was going to make it!

But I tried reading the Quran once, and had to put it down, it was raising such a storm of fearsome anger that I couldn't get through it.

Blessings,
Lee

[Cerebrum123]

Well, it does. "Those who are with [Allah] are hard against the unbelievers." (48:29)


Well, he was.


Yes.


It seems this saying 'Islam is a religion of peace" is generally trying to reduce the fires of conflict. I agree with this aim! But making statements where the end justifies the means is not going to be effective--in the long run.

Islam is a religion of submission, that appears to me to be the heart of Islam. And a religion of works, there really is no peace for a Muslim until they make it to Paradise. So Islam is certainly not a religion of heart peace, of peace in the heart, even Mohammed ("peace be upon him", as Muslims pray for him to make it to Paradise whenever they mention his name) was not certain he was going to make it!

But I tried reading the Quran once, and had to put it down, it was raising such a storm of fearsome anger that I couldn't get through it.

Blessings,
Lee

Yeah, when I tried reading the Quran, it was so hard to get through for me, because of the KJV on steroids language. I have had to basically take it piece by piece rather than go through in one sitting, and usually not by looking at an actual Quran(online or otherwise), but through different articles discussing various verses.

[Dan Zebiri]

There was a bahai here, who tried promoting the idea that islam gives 'peace that passes understanding'. But actually no muslim really knows what that means...'peace' that comes from hearing an arabic reciting of the koran? Peace from dancing round and round like a whirling dervish? Peace from chanting verses?

When Jesus declared 'MY Peace I give unto you..' He was imparting a peace to disciples who have been reconciled to God and have peace with God. through Jesus Christ.

Hence, He could say:

He says, "I AM the way, the truth and the life ... MY PEACE I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." (John 14:6,27)

I for one, am sure that islam could not impart this kind of peace.

Dan.

Yeah, when I tried reading the Quran, it was so hard to get through for me, because of the KJV on steroids language. I have had to basically take it piece by piece rather than go through in one sitting, and usually not by looking at an actual Quran(online or otherwise), but through different articles discussing various verses.

[Adrift]

Yeah, when I tried reading the Quran, it was so hard to get through for me, because of the KJV on steroids language. I have had to basically take it piece by piece rather than go through in one sitting, and usually not by looking at an actual Quran(online or otherwise), but through different articles discussing various verses.

I was recently looking for a free audiobook version of the Quran for download, and found a good copy here, http://archive.org/details/Basfar

This is the Saheeh International version, and it's broken up so you hear the Arabic recitation of a passage sung first, and then the English translation spoken after that. The only downside to this version is that the English is spoken in a "Canadian accent" (tisk tisk ), but this translation is described as "clear, modern English, [with] smooth flow of sentences".

You can listen to the book on the website, or you can download the whole book in zip file by clicking on this link, http://archive.org/compress/Basfar. It took me awhile to download on a decent connection, so keep that in mind.

I haven't read/listened to this yet, because I'm still trying to get through Ireneaus' Against Heresies (sheesh that book is incomprehensible), but will probably listen to it after that.

[Cerebrum123]

I was recently looking for a free audiobook version of the Quran for download, and found a good copy here, http://archive.org/details/Basfar

This is the Saheeh International version, and it's broken up so you hear the Arabic recitation of a passage sung first, and then the English translation spoken after that. The only downside to this version is that the English is spoken in a "Canadian accent" (tisk tisk ), but this translation is described as "clear, modern English, [with] smooth flow of sentences".

You can listen to the book on the website, or you can download the whole book in zip file by clicking on this link, http://archive.org/compress/Basfar. It took me awhile to download on a decent connection, so keep that in mind.

I haven't read/listened to this yet, because I'm still trying to get through Ireneaus' Against Heresies (sheesh that book is incomprehensible), but will probably listen to it after that.

I don't do audio very well.
Plus, you usually need at least to look at Islamic history, and when Mohammed supposedly "revealed" said verse, then you need to compare it to other verses that were "revealed" for consistency, which ever one was "revealed" last, gets precedence. It takes an awful lot of reading, just to understand very small verses, especially with the "ambivalent" names of Allah(supposedly when Allah is called "the greatest of deceivers" it doesn't mean that, but only because it's describing Allah). And then there are verses which mean absolutely NOTHING in ANY language currently existing, or that we even know about.

[Adrift]

I don't do audio very well.

Ah. Well never mind then.

Plus, you usually need at least to look at Islamic history, and when Mohammed supposedly "revealed" said verse, then you need to compare it to other verses that were "revealed" for consistency, which ever one was "revealed" last, gets precedence.

Yes, I'm aware that the Quran is not chronological, and of the doctrine of abrogation. For myself, I think it'll be beneficial to read the Quran in the order its presented to the average Muslim, and then go back later to see which verses abrogate others.

It takes an awful lot of reading, just to understand very small verses, especially with the "ambivalent" names of Allah(supposedly when Allah is called "the greatest of deceivers" it doesn't mean that, but only because it's describing Allah). And then there are verses which mean absolutely NOTHING in ANY language currently existing, or that we even know about.

Fair nuff.

[Tanakh Keeper]

There was a bahai here, who tried promoting the idea that islam gives 'peace that passes understanding'. But actually no muslim really knows what that means...'peace' that comes from hearing an arabic reciting of the koran? Peace from dancing round and round like a whirling dervish? Peace from chanting verses?

I think Islam gives the peace of the grave.

[Dan Zebiri]

And that to me, means it gives only deathly peace..no real love or peace whatever :-/ :-(


QUOTE=Tanakh Keeper;3440011]I think Islam gives the peace of the grave.[/QUOTE]

[Dan Zebiri]

STILL no intelligent response from any thoughtful muslim, even in their month of ramadhan!

Truly tragic.

There was a bahai here, who tried promoting the idea that islam gives 'peace that passes understanding'. But actually no muslim really knows what that means...'peace' that comes from hearing an arabic reciting of the koran? Peace from dancing round and round like a whirling dervish? Peace from chanting verses?

When Jesus declared 'MY Peace I give unto you..' He was imparting a peace to disciples who have been reconciled to God and have peace with God. through Jesus Christ.

Hence, He could say:

He says, "I AM the way, the truth and the life ... MY PEACE I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." (John 14:6,27)

I for one, am sure that islam could not impart this kind of peace.

Dan.

[Cerebrum123]

STILL no intelligent response from any thoughtful muslim, even in their month of ramadhan!

Truly tragic.

I don't think that there are very many Muslims on TWeb right now, nor have I seen many since I have joined. So maybe there is just no notice of this thread by Muslims/

[Truther]

I have been observing and studying the Islamic mentality since 1981. I have studied it from the sources that Muhammadans tell me to study it from as well as from the sources that they tell me to avoid at all costs. I have done it this way in order to be perfectly fair to myself (an inquirer who strives hard to admit being wrong when actually wrong and who frankly enjoys rubbing in the truth to all who would set themselves against it).

As a result I have found that Islam is continually proving itself to be every bit as unholy as I had believed it to be and even more unholy than I had initially thought it to be from the very first impressions I had received from its proponents and from its coverage in the news that I had been familiar with during the President Nixon years.

When Internet forums were new there were lots and lots of Muslims who were debating us Christians. Not long afterwards, though, they (I am including the best of them) soon discovered that their anti-Christian, anti-semitic, or pro-Islamic arguments were pathetic when compared with the arguments of an informed opposition. So, as I had previously anticipated, they very quickly dropped out of the forums like flies that had been sprayed with insecticide. Hence, you rarely, if ever, see them debating in forums where there is any semblance of an informed opposition. Nevertheless, occasionally you see them in forums like this.

They love to spew forth a whitewashed version of islam as this is in keeping with their Islamic doctrine of Taqiyya (e.g., a Quranic and Sharia-compliant doctrine of deceiving one's enemies for the purpose of luring them into a false sense of security).

There is an exhaustive amount of anti-Islamic truth that you can find on the Internet as well as in offline books. There is more than enough evidence to convince everyone that Islam is no better than a cult of death and destruction or no better than a cult that was designed from the outset to make life most miserable for everyone but a certain brand of emotionally disturbed children, criminals, or lunatics.

[Cerebrum123]

I have been observing and studying the Islamic mentality since 1981. I have studied it from the sources that Muhammadans tell me to study it from as well as from the sources that they tell me to avoid at all cost. I have done it this way in order to be perfectly fair to myself (an inquirer who strives hard to admit being wrong when actually wrong and who frankly enjoys rubbing in the truth to all who would set themselves against it).

As a result I have found that Islam is continually proving itself to be every bit as horrible as its first impressions proved themselves to me to be in 1981.

When Internet forums were new there were lots and lots of Muslims who were debating us Christians. Not long afterwards, though, they (I am including the best of them) soon discovered that their anti-Christian, anti-semitic, or pro-Islamic arguments were pathetic when compared with the arguments of an informed opposition. So, as I had previously anticipated, they very quickly dropped out of the forums. Hence, you rarely, if ever, see them debating in forums where there is any semblance of an informed opposition.

There is ample stuff on the Internet and in an exhaustive list of offline books to convince every enquirer that Islam is no better than a cult of death and destruction or no better than a cult that was designed from the outset to make life most miserable for everyone but a certain brand of emotionally disturbed children, criminals, or lunatics.

I might not have put it quite as bluntly as you have, but what you say appears to be true. I had decided to personally study Islam after I two events happened. One of them was 9/11, and the other was that my neurologist who primarily treats me is a Muslim. Since then I have become more and more shocked by what I learned. I looked at sources from everyone, pro Islam, antiIslam, and exMuslim. The exMuslim's were the most honest, and were very quick to point out the evils inherent in Islamic teaching. I find it mind boggling that I know so many nice and decent people that can call themselves Muslims. I just don't understand it. Is it ignorance, is it deception, or some other factor that allows otherwise normal people to think that Mohammed was the greatest example of humanity to ever live.

[Truther]

Please re-read my post. I edited it twice since you posted in reply. I think you will find your answer there.

Taquiyya is the word you should google and Youtube.

[Cerebrum123]

Please re-read my post. I edited it twice since you posted in reply. I think you will find your answer there.

Taquiyya is the word you should google and Youtube.

Yeah, I know about Taqquiyya. I just find it very hard to believe that my neurologist, the only person who currently is capable of treating my disease correctly that I know of, would engage in such a doctrine. He has always been very honest about everything else, so it's hard to imagine him lying about this aspect of his life. Thanks anyway though.
Unlike you I had gone into my studies of Islam thinking that it was probably like most major religions. Basically a Golden Rule, and some way of working your way to heaven, but what I found was far from what I expected to find. While both of those are in Islam, they are perverted, or have been abrogated by something sinister. Any other semblance of good teachings I found were also abrogated by other verses, and the bad outweighed the good by a huge portion. It breaks my heart knowing that my neurologist believes such things as the Quran teaches, or at best picks out the ones he likes, and leaves out the ones he doesn't.