Prove to me that Islam is a religion of peace and love?

[Cow Poke]

Please make proper use of the quote function. The way you did it makes it look like I said the really stupid stuff that should be attributed to you.

[Chabchaba]

Please learn how to use the quote function, but in any case...

I know how to use them I was just too tired to.

In other words, "Many Muslims not following the principles of their religion isn't evidence that they don't know how to, but Christians not doing is evidence that Christians do not know how."

Yes because love is supposedly a good thing and when people can't do it it means they don't know how to, especially if they talk about it all time/

Pretty good blinders you have on there. I'm sorry dear, but when you can do more then just ignoring evidence you personally dislike, I'll spend more time responding to you, but for now you are caught ignoring evidence you personally dislike and thus you have just flushed your credibility down the tubes.

thanks for your concern, but I disagree.

An assertion that is made without evidence can be dismissed as such, until you present evidence to back your case. Now please prove (IE don't assert) that Christians just 'made up' Christianity or admit you can't.

Historical evidence points to that fact. it's not the subject of the thread but if you start another thread with that subject I will be more than happy to discuss it with you.

Yet another assertion that is made without evidence. Tell me dear, have you ever read the Bible?

Many parts of it, and I've read , all of Nike's slogan.

Why are their Muslims around the world that talk about their faith, but don't follow it? When you deal with this question instead of dodging it, maybe I'll answer yours or do you not like what the answer reveals so you're hoping dodging it, will make it go away?

for many reasons, but not knowing how to follow it its basic tenets isn't one of them.

And yet, you're totally clueless of the heavy Christian involvement of the anti-slavery movement.

I'm not, but I was just making an example, I never intended to generalise. Actually I have many christian friends who are nice people, but the point is that christians are no more loving than any other people.

Why, you're the one ignoring my questions and dodging them because you don't like the answers given. It is pretty simple that even somebody with your obviously grasp of logic could understand. What is the golden rule of the Bible? What did Jesus say about who was our neighbors? What did James say about a faith that isn't displayed, through our actions? What did Paul say about love? What did Peter say about love? I'm sorry this goes way over your head.

What's this got to do with cultural context??????

Nah, you're just an idiot that is repeating arguments you heard from your imam and repeating it, without question. I'm sorry dear, but the Bible gives us quite a bit about love and tells us how to do it. According to Biblegateway.com, the word love is used in the NT alone, 261 times. Did you actually bother to go and look up those verses and see what they said before you decided that the Bible didn't say how to love? Jesus tells us that everybody is our neighbor, Jesus tells us to treat others as we want to be treated, Jesus tells us to pray for those who mistreat us, Paul gives us a huge list of what love is all about and what it does in 1 Corth 13, John tells us that perfect love drives out all fear in 1 John 3, and James tells us that a faith without action is dead in James 3. The point is, all of those verses make it pretty clear, you just most likely didn't bother to read before you spoke and now it has been exposed that the Bible says quite a bit about what love is all about, how to do it, and what it means to our faith, you seem to now call it 'Nike Version of Christianity' because you are too dumb to respond to any of it. Nice going there dear, but when you can actually respond to what I have said, perhaps we'll try this again, ok?

actually I did a lot of original research into this, and never heard it from "my Imam". calling me an idiot won't make you less wrong.

I have already responded to you but it probably too straightforward that you missed it. Your mind probably got twisted by all the esoteric stuff in Christianity, which not even the pope really understands, that now you can't understand simple things.

Let me explain further:

First what I meant by the Nike version, isn't love, it's the "just do it part" which wasn't in the bible, no offence to Christianity intended.

The bible talks a lot about love, but when does it tell people how to love?

If you keep saying the word calculus, will that that ever make you a mathematician??? or if you keep collecting quotes about how math is important for humanity, will that teach you anything about maths? What if you keep repeating the word in your prayers??? Love is the same, you can't learn it by just repeating the word, not even if you repeat it 261 times in different languages, and the only change that will ever happen is that you will look silly.

When does the bible teach people how to love?
The answer is it NEVER did, and never will,


“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


This sounds nice, but it doesn't tell people HOW to love. The result is that the Christians end up being just like the tax collectors and the gentiles, doing no more than others.

It's just like listening to love songs on the radio. It will never make you a more loving human being.

[Cow Poke]

The idea is that the government isn't an abstract entity,

Nobody said it was.

it's a bunch of people.

Wow, REALLY!?!?!

Even if they have powers they're still a bunch of people.

So you see no difference between the actions of a sovereign government, and, for example, the actions of a crazed suicide bomber? They are the SAME to you?

[lilpixieofterror]

I know how to use them I was just too tired to.

It doesn't take anymore time then using the color function.

Yes because love is supposedly a good thing and when people can't do it it means they don't know how to, especially if they talk about it all time/

Dodge noted, so when you can explain why some Muslims don't follow the principles of their religion then maybe you'll understand why some Christians don't follow the principles of theirs. See how easy this is?

thanks for your concern, but I disagree.

I'm sure you do, but I'm sure you know as well as I do that there are Muslims who are more dedicated to being Muslims then others, just as the same can be said about every religion out there, does this therefore mean NO religion tells us what you want it to tell you or does this simply mean that speaking about it and doing it are two different things?

Historical evidence points to that fact. it's not the subject of the thread but if you start another thread with that subject I will be more than happy to discuss it with you.

Your assertion is noted and dismissed as such, but go ahead and throw up your 'theories'. I have had lots of fun refuting the theories that Atheist and Muslims have throw up other the years and you will not be the first. How about we start with this one though, why didn't Mohammad know what the trinity doctrine actually teaches?

Many parts of it, and I've read , all of Nike's slogan.

More assertions, but it is pretty clear you're dodging now... I'm sorry reality is distorting your view.

for many reasons, but not knowing how to follow it its basic tenets isn't one of them.

And the assertion keeps coming while you totally dodge why so many Muslims do not follow the basic tenements of their faith either. Following your insane logic, I guess Mohammad doesn't tell you how to live your life either. Of course, for those of us living in reality we know the real answer, following and doing is two totally different things.

I'm not, but I was just making an example, I never intended to generalise. Actually I have many christian friends who are nice people, but the point is that christians are no more loving than any other people.

Maybe we should start strapping on suicide vest and blowing ourselves up to kill lots of people? Guess that would be 'more loving'? Now let us try this again... does everybody follow the principles of their religion? Since I know not everybody does, does that therefore mean no religion tells you how to live your life?

What's this got to do with cultural context??????

So reading the Bible, in context, and not just ignoring parts of it that work against your theory has not a thing to do with this? Pretty funny...

actually I did a lot of original research into this, and never heard it from "my Imam". calling me an idiot won't make you less wrong.

Sounds like to me you dug this up from the same fundy atheist web sites that I read and refute for entertainment. It is always interesting though how Muslims are willing to jump in the same bed with atheist when they agree with them, but will jump out of that bed the second they stop agreeing eh? You do know that I've heard your arguments, almost word by word, from atheist over the years, right? My answer to them is the same as I gave you and they ignored/dodged it the same as you are now.

I have already responded to you but it probably too straightforward that you missed it. Your mind probably got twisted by all the esoteric stuff in Christianity, which not even the pope really understands, that now you can't understand simple things.

I'm sorry child, but I am not a Catholic and that is pretty rich from the same person that simply outright ignores verses in the Bible that work against his theory. How entertaining...

Let me explain further:

First what I meant by the Nike version, isn't love, it's the "just do it part" which wasn't in the bible, no offence to Christianity intended.

Really, so are you one of those fundies that has to find everything in the Bible, written word for word, or it doesn't exist? Ok... now let us see how well this game works, the Qur'an doesn't teach you how to read Arabic, therefore it is worthless because it doesn't teach us everything we need to know. Wow, that was an easy refutation of the Qur'an, I can see why you like thinking this way, it is easier then doing hard research. Now returning to 'reality' where everybody else lives, how about I am giving a summery of what the Bible is saying? Wow... that was really hard, wasn't it?

The bible talks a lot about love, but when does it tell people how to love?

Yes and your avoidance is noted. Does the Qur'an tell you how to talk? No, guess it must be worthless! Does the Qur'an tell you how to walk? Well, it must be worthless! Now again, let us return to reality and try this one, perhaps the Bible tells us by example as well as giving several key speeches that have to be read and understood instead of wanting the answer handed to you on a platter? Jesus tells us to pray for those who mistreat us, so perhaps the way to start to love others is to pray for those who mistreat us?

If you keep saying the word calculus, will that that ever make you a mathematician??? or if you keep collecting quotes about how math is important for humanity, will that teach you anything about maths? What if you keep repeating the word in your prayers??? Love is the same, you can't learn it by just repeating the word, not even if you repeat it 261 times in different languages, and the only change that will ever happen is that you will look silly.

I know it blows your little mind, but perhaps you should go and READ those verses and see what they say instead of throwing a little fit about it?

When does the bible teach people how to love?
The answer is it NEVER did, and never will,

It did, you're just too stupid to actually bother to understand this stuff for yourself and instead want everything handed to you on a silver platter. I shouldn't be surprised, since you do believe a religion that tells you the trinity is the Father, Mary, and Jesus when no Christian has every followed that nonsense. Hey though, misrepresenting the beliefs of Christians is the Islamic way, which goes right back to Mohammad, eh? I would have thought that a prophet from God could have at least got the Christian beliefs right and yet you want me to believe that the Bible doesn't tell us how to love or that Islam is correct when it makes gross errors like that?

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


This sounds nice, but it doesn't tell people HOW to love. The result is that the Christians end up being just like the tax collectors and the gentiles, doing no more than others.

I'm guessing you are one of these people that wants everything handed to you on a silver platter, again, perhaps that is how you love? Just by loving others or is that too easy for you to get?

It's just like listening to love songs on the radio. It will never make you a more loving human being.

Indeed, thus the reason that we are told to take up our cross and follow Christ, eh? Again, the Bible makes it quite clear that following the principles laid out and not just hearing them is the key. You really haven't read the Bible, have you?

[Chabchaba]

Nobody said it was.



Wow, REALLY!?!?!



So you see no difference between the actions of a sovereign government, and, for example, the actions of a crazed suicide bomber? They are the SAME to you?

So you have realised how stupid you sounded when you said

A) It's not a "Christian" sending an unmanned aircraft -- it's a sovereign government.

I am glad that you've realised it.


Anyway let's get to your second point.
Do you think that killing innocent people is somehow less evil when it is done by a bunch of people who constitute a sovereign government?
At least the "crazed suicide bomber" can plead insanity.

It doesn't take anymore time then using the color function.

Actually it does, depending on how many quotes you want to use.

Dodge noted, so when you can explain why some Muslims don't follow the principles of their religion then maybe you'll understand why some Christians don't follow the principles of theirs. See how easy this is?

This isn't a dodge but it's apparently too subtle for you to get it. Muslims who don't follow the principles of Islam still know how to follow them. Christians who don't follow the most important tenet of their religion do that because they simply don't know how to. Come on even married people can fall out of love and not know how to fall back into it. Would advise them to "just do it"? Do they just decide to fall back in love and it automatically happens?
That's where you're wrong. Love takes a lot of hard work, which is something the bible didn't explain to you.

I'm sure you do, but I'm sure you know as well as I do that there are Muslims who are more dedicated to being Muslims then others, just as the same can be said about every religion out there, does this therefore mean NO religion tells us what you want it to tell you or does this simply mean that speaking about it and doing it are two different things?

Dedication to something doesn't mean you'll automatically be more successful. Know-how is just as important as dedication.

Your assertion is noted and dismissed as such, but go ahead and throw up your 'theories'. I have had lots of fun refuting the theories that Atheist and Muslims have throw up other the years and you will not be the first. How about we start with this one though, why didn't Mohammad know what the trinity doctrine actually teaches?

Your trinity doctrine is not the same as everyone's trinity doctrine.

More assertions, but it is pretty clear you're dodging now... I'm sorry reality is distorting your view.

Thanks for your compassion.

And the assertion keeps coming while you totally dodge why so many Muslims do not follow the basic tenements of their faith either. Following your insane logic, I guess Mohammad doesn't tell you how to live your life either. Of course, for those of us living in reality we know the real answer, following and doing is two totally different things.

Islam teaches us a lot. The rest is what makes us individuals.

Maybe we should start strapping on suicide vest and blowing ourselves up to kill lots of people? Guess that would be 'more loving'? Now let us try this again... does everybody follow the principles of their religion? Since I know not everybody does, does that therefore mean no religion tells you how to live your life?

Suicide bomber never claimed they were doing it out of love.

So reading the Bible, in context, and not just ignoring parts of it that work against your theory has not a thing to do with this? Pretty funny...

What parts did I ignore?

Sounds like to me you dug this up from the same fundy atheist web sites that I read and refute for entertainment. It is always interesting though how Muslims are willing to jump in the same bed with atheist when they agree with them, but will jump out of that bed the second they stop agreeing eh? You do know that I've heard your arguments, almost word by word, from atheist over the years, right? My answer to them is the same as I gave you and they ignored/dodged it the same as you are now.

Well I didn't dig it up from there but it makes sense so lots of intelligent people have realised it.

I'm sorry child, but I am not a Catholic and that is pretty rich from the same person that simply outright ignores verses in the Bible that work against his theory. How entertaining...

I never said you were Catholic, and I never ignored any verses in the Bible.

Really, so are you one of those fundies that has to find everything in the Bible, written word for word, or it doesn't exist? Ok... now let us see how well this game works, the Qur'an doesn't teach you how to read Arabic, therefore it is worthless because it doesn't teach us everything we need to know. Wow, that was an easy refutation of the Qur'an, I can see why you like thinking this way, it is easier then doing hard research. Now returning to 'reality' where everybody else lives, how about I am giving a summery of what the Bible is saying? Wow... that was really hard, wasn't it?

If it's not in the Bible then someone must have made it up. As far as I know making stuff up and adding it to Christianity is the Ecumenical councils' job, not yours.

Yes and your avoidance is noted. Does the Qur'an tell you how to talk? No, guess it must be worthless! Does the Qur'an tell you how to walk? Well, it must be worthless! Now again, let us return to reality and try this one, perhaps the Bible tells us by example as well as giving several key speeches that have to be read and understood instead of wanting the answer handed to you on a platter? Jesus tells us to pray for those who mistreat us, so perhaps the way to start to love others is to pray for those who mistreat us?

Most people will not mistreat you, so what if you hate a person for no obvious reason whatsoever?

I know it blows your little mind, but perhaps you should go and READ those verses and see what they say instead of throwing a little fit about it?

I know what they say and it doesn't include an explanation of how to love.

It did, you're just too stupid to actually bother to understand this stuff for yourself and instead want everything handed to you on a silver platter. I shouldn't be surprised, since you do believe a religion that tells you the trinity is the Father, Mary, and Jesus when no Christian has every followed that nonsense. Hey though, misrepresenting the beliefs of Christians is the Islamic way, which goes right back to Mohammad, eh? I would have thought that a prophet from God could have at least got the Christian beliefs right and yet you want me to believe that the Bible doesn't tell us how to love or that Islam is correct when it makes gross errors like that?

Some Christians have followed that nonsense, and your claim that they are heretical doesn't have much importance to us because as far as I'm concerned, you're all heretics and no Christian sect has the authority to decide what form of the trinity the Quran should talk about.
besides that the verse which you are talking about never mentioned a trinity, it only mentioned people who worship Jesus and Mary, which is something a lot of people do today, and some people also worship saints, despite calling themselves trinitarians.

I'm guessing you are one of these people that wants everything handed to you on a silver platter, again, perhaps that is how you love? Just by loving others or is that too easy for you to get?



Indeed, thus the reason that we are told to take up our cross and follow Christ, eh? Again, the Bible makes it quite clear that following the principles laid out and not just hearing them is the key. You really haven't read the Bible, have you?

Statistically speaking, more Muslims pray 5 times a day than Christians, which makes sense because Islam tells them to do so. More Buddhists meditate than Christians because their religion tells them to do so. Christendom should have a significantly higher rate of people who are more loving than average non-Christians, because Christianity tells people to be more loving. This is not to say that every Christian should be more loving, but just that there should be a significantly higher rate of loving Christians as opposed to people of other religions.
Does this make sense to your or not?

[Cow Poke]

So you have realised how stupid you sounded when you said

No. Because you have NO WAY of knowing if it was a Christian who ordered it or not.

I am glad that you've realised it.

Typical tactic used by somebody who has no point.

[lilpixieofterror]

At least the "crazed suicide bomber" can plead insanity.

And does his thoughts come from insanity or his religious beliefs? See Chab, Jesus tells us that those that live by the sword, die by the sword meaning, among other things, that you should kill to spread your religion. How did Islam spread? Care to tell us?

Actually it does, depending on how many quotes you want to use.

I don't see how, but whatever.

This isn't a dodge but it's apparently too subtle for you to get it. Muslims who don't follow the principles of Islam still know how to follow them. Christians who don't follow the most important tenet of their religion do that because they simply don't know how to. Come on even married people can fall out of love and not know how to fall back into it. Would advise them to "just do it"? Do they just decide to fall back in love and it automatically happens?

Yet another assertion, that is unbacked and unproved and yet again, you STILL are dodging the point. Now show, with evidence and NOT assertions that some Christians NOT following the principles of their religion means they don't know how. Plus, yeah I would say instead of worrying about "How to love" perhaps you should just go out and do it? What examples in the Bible are we given about what love is and what it does? The Bible is full of it, so again, ignoring evidence you dislike doesn't make your case for you. Now again, put up or shut up and show your assertion is true, with evidence.

That's where you're wrong. Love takes a lot of hard work, which is something the bible didn't explain to you.

So you're asserting that the Bible doesn't say that the Christian walk is hard to follow? Is that really the position you want to take? I'm sorry dear, you should really try actually reading the Bible instead of listening to whatever you are told, without question. Jesus says that the road is narrow and few people can follow it. Paul tells us that his spirit is willing, but his flesh is not. We hear about the struggles of Jesus, John, and Paul throughout the Bible and them saying it isn't going to be easy. So again, what Bible are you reading? The same one your prophet read, that told him that the trinity was Mary, Jesus, and God the father?

Dedication to something doesn't mean you'll automatically be more successful. Know-how is just as important as dedication.

Too bad the Bible tells us both are important, eh? Again, have you actually read the Christian scripture because everything I said, can be confirmed, just by a quick check on biblegateway.com or did you not bother to check anything you said before you said it?

Your trinity doctrine is not the same as everyone's trinity doctrine.

It is funny that 'my' trinity doctrine is the one held by Catholics, Protestants, and Eastern Orthodox church's all over the world, eh? Hey though, I know you don't like what the truth exposes, that either your prophet was a liar, didn't know, or both, but that is the truth and not liking it isn't going to make it go away. If Mohammad can't even represent the trinity correctly, why should I listen to anything else he has to say?

Thanks for your compassion.

You're welcome, so when will you face up to reality?

Islam teaches us a lot. The rest is what makes us individuals.

Christianity teaches a lot too, but it is clear you don't know what it teaches, by your ignorance of it.

Suicide bomber never claimed they were doing it out of love.

And what does the Koran tell us about people that die killing infidels?

What parts did I ignore?

You mean like the parts you claimed that the Bible doesn't tell us what love is or how to love? When there's several verses telling us all of that? You mean like claiming the Bible doesn't say love is sometimes hard, just as several verses say the opposite? It is clear to me you haven't read the Bible, have you?

Well I didn't dig it up from there but it makes sense so lots of intelligent people have realised it.

So praising other idiots, eh? Well, why bother to educate when spreading ignorance is easier?

I never said you were Catholic, and I never ignored any verses in the Bible.

Yeah, you have dear and ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

If it's not in the Bible then someone must have made it up. As far as I know making stuff up and adding it to Christianity is the Ecumenical councils' job, not yours.

Name 10 things that the Ecumenical councils have made up and added into Christian please. Now here is your chance, put up or shut up because I happen to know quite a bit about the Ecumenical councils and they were called to settle dispute between different groups and/or to rehash and clarify doctrines.

Most people will not mistreat you, so what if you hate a person for no obvious reason whatsoever?

What reason do you have to hate a person, just because? What does Paul tell us about love, my dear? I don't know of too many people that hate others just for the fun of it, they usually hate others for reasons like religion, disagreement, personality conflicts, etc. That would be the far extreme, hey though, if you want to argue that Christianity doesn't tell us everything about the far extremes, then give me an answer for why some Muslims feel it is ok to blow themselves up and kill thousands as a result?

I know what they say and it doesn't include an explanation of how to love.

Are you Data now? Are you saying that the Bible is suppose to explain things to somebody with no emotions?

Some Christians have followed that nonsense, and your claim that they are heretical doesn't have much importance to us because as far as I'm concerned, you're all heretics and no Christian sect has the authority to decide what form of the trinity the Quran should talk about.

In other words, you're prophet was 100% totally wrong and you'll defend him, no matter what. I'm sorry little boy, but the majority of the church, has always taught, that the trinity is the father, son, and holy spirit and at best, there would be a tiny minority of Christians that taught that the trinity was Jesus, Mary, and God the father and pretending that the majority of Christians believe X, when the truth is Y shows me that either your prophet was ignorant, an outright liar, or both. If your prophet can't even properly represent the trinity doctrine, why should I trust the rest of what he has to say? Face it, your prophet was wrong and making excuses for him doesn't make you look that good. It is cute though that you think I am a heretic, it is too bad that your prophet is the heretic, that has taught a false doctrine that has lead millions astray from the truth of Christ though. If that makes you mad, oh well, if you want to talk bad about Christians, then you shouldn't get offended when I do the same to you.

besides that the verse which you are talking about never mentioned a trinity, it only mentioned people who worship Jesus and Mary, which is something a lot of people do today, and some people also worship saints, despite calling themselves trinitarians.

People worship Mary and the saints? I'm sorry dear, but the Catholics nor the Eastern Orthodox church 'worships' saints. They ask the saints to watch over them, pray for them, and to act as a mediator between them and God, but the do not 'worship' the saints. Again, if you're not going to properly represent Christian belief right, then why should I believe the rest of what you have to say when you go on to misrepresent Christian beliefs as you do?

Statistically speaking, more Muslims pray 5 times a day than Christians, which makes sense because Islam tells them to do so. More Buddhists meditate than Christians because their religion tells them to do so. Christendom should have a significantly higher rate of people who are more loving than average non-Christians, because Christianity tells people to be more loving. This is not to say that every Christian should be more loving, but just that there should be a significantly higher rate of loving Christians as opposed to people of other religions.
Does this make sense to your or not?

That you're an idiot that doesn't understand what he talks about? Yep, first off... what is 'love' as it is described in the Bible? Second, are there Muslims who are better at following the principles of their religion then other? Finally, take a look at the largest movements of human rights in history and see who was behind them. Was it a Muslim that called for the end of the slave trade or Christians? Was it Muslims that smuggled Jews out of Europe or was it Christians? I could go on and on dear, but the if I look at the best examples in history of what love is all about, the overwhelming majority of these people were professing Christians.