Immortality?..live forever?...do you want it?...I don't know

[karibou]

I also posted this on Facebook under a group called "OH, My God"....in case anyone is interested to join discussion that way.
--------------

Amazon Book Description
Publication Date: April 3, 2012 | ISBN-10: 0307884910 | ISBN-13: 978-0307884916 | Edition: 1

A fascinating work of popular philosophy and history that both enlightens and entertains,
Stephen Cave’s Immortality investigates whether it just might be possible to live forever and whether we should want to. But it also makes a powerful argument, which is that it’s our very preoccupation with defying mortality that drives civilization.

THESIS = makes a powerful argument, which is that it’s our very preoccupation with defying mortality that drives civilization.

Central to this book is the metaphor of a mountaintop where one can find the Immortals. Since the dawn of humanity, everyone – whether they know it or not – has been trying to climb that mountain. But there are only four paths up its treacherous slope, and there have only ever been four paths. Throughout history, people have wagered everything on their choice of the correct path, and fought wars against those who’ve chosen differently.

While Immortality takes the reader on an eye-opening journey from the beginnings of civilization to the present day, the structure is not chronological. Rather it is path driven. As each path is revealed to us, an historical figure serves as our guide.

In drawing back the curtain on what compels humans to “keep on keeping on,” Cave engages the reader in a number of mind-bending thought experiments. He teases out the implications of each immortality gambit, asking, for example, how long a person would live if they did manage to acquire a perfectly disease-free body. Or what would happen if a super-being tried to round up the atomic constituents of all who’ve died in order to resurrect them. Or what our loved ones would really be doing in heaven if it does exist. Or what part of us actually lives in a work of art, and how long that work of art can survive.

Toward the the book’s end, we’re confronted with a series of brain-rattling questions: What would happen if tomorrow humanity discovered that there is no life but this one? Would people continue to care about their favorite sports team, please their boss, vie for the title of Year’s Best Salesman? Would three-hundred-year projects still get started? If the four paths up the Mount of the Immortals lead nowhere -- if there is no getting up to the summit -- is there still reason to live? And can civilization survive?

Immortality is a deeply satisfying book, as optimistic about the human condition as it is insightful about the true arc of history.




Karibou's Commentary:

Was I ready to have all that I believe in,…turned upside down? This is what this book has done.

I just finished Immortality by Stephen Cave today (7/13.2012). I was clued into this book from the British podcast, “Unbelievable”….which continues to be my favorite podcast.

After reading this book my Christian belief and theology has not been rejected but it has certainly been challenged! That sounds pretty bad I know….but I can’t help but see that Stephen Cave has done good research and been very thoughtful in his study.

In the last couple of days I emailed and called Ravi Zacharias ministries because of the skepticism this book has left me with. I spoke with Margaret Manning and said I will be planning to update her time to time based on the interaction I receive from others. She recommended that I read “Surprised by Hope” by N. T. Wright. I appreciated the phone conversation. She told me how she lost her husband in this past year. She revealed that it is her personal opinion that there is finitude in death and she doesn’t find Biblical grounds to believe that we immediately go to into an afterlife upon death. She did say that a Christian can sustain a belief in resurrection and also have compatibility in believing in a “future” (not immediate) resurrection. She doesn’t see that God must be clear with us on the details of the afterlife and she feels that we can only be so accurate in what we “believe” to actually happen. Pastors would be out of business if they didn’t dispense Biblical hope….to put it bluntly. The same goes for many other religions. She was anxious to read this book after talking with me. I told her that is my firm belief that this book (once read through) will shake the beliefs of many intellectual Christians who have a bent towards skepticism. That said, I deeply admire the scholarship of N.T. Wright and I may find that his thoughts in his book to bring back more “hope”.

Overall, I guess you could say I’m deeply perplexed but not broken in my present Christian faith. Cave’s writings on the resurrection do give me more to consider and think over but I recognize his research or theories are not complete deal breakers. They make a Christian reconsider their position in the argument for a “physical” resurrection…. but his case doesn’t completely destroy the arguments already established by seasoned Christian apologists. I will be excited to see Christian apologist’s response to the questions he poses in this book.

At this point…..my intention is to go back through this book and make notes and look for dialogue with other Christians. I will probably use facebook for this, but may gather input via church.

I know this doesn’t sound at all positive……but I know that I want truth, as all people should……and……sometimes truth doesn’t fit with “all” that I desire personally or spiritually. Cave’s writing has sobered me up a good bit. At this point in my personal thought world….I do find that we may honestly be taking a belief that for all purposes…which actually could be “pie in the sky” to some degree.





Chapter 1 - A Beautiful Woman Has Come

Cave discusses the four Immortality Narratives. He says there are four basic forms:

1) Staying Alive
2) Resurrection
3) Soul
4) Legacy

*Everything below is taken from the first few pages up to page 7.

Staying Alive

It is a continuation of our attempts to stay young and healthy, to live that little bit longer, an extra year or two or ten.

Resurrection

The second narrative offers a backup plan: it claims that even if death finds us, we can have a second bite at life’s cherry. We can physically die and physically rise again with the bodies we knew in life.

Soul

The dream of surviving as some kind of spiritual entity. The majority of people on earth currently believe they have a soul. Believers in the Soul narrative have mostly given up on this earthly frame and believe in a future consisting of some more spiritual stuff.

Legacy

Requires neither the survival of the physical body nor an immaterial soul, but is concerned instead with more indirect ways of extending ourselves into the future.


These narratives are manifested in many forms, from ancient myths to political manifestos, but at least one is present in every culture, providing the milestones and signposts on life’s road. Some civilizations have followed a single path for thousands of years. Others have shifted from pursuing one path to the next. But no civilization has survived unsupported by one of the four: all have immortality narratives, and all immortality narratives fall into one of these four kinds.


Sunset of Aten

Cave moves into examples of the use of these narratives in the ancient past. He goes back to ancient Egypt as his main example. He tells the history of Nefertiti and Akhenaten. He explains how the couple which became rulers (or Pharoahs) of Egypt hijacked the immortality system for themselves.

-----------------

*Everything below is taken from page 13 to 28.

But what is it that that drives us first to create such systems and then fight and even die to defend them? The sheer universality of immortality narratives, the fact they seem to be central to every culture, suggests that the root is in human nature itself. Indeed, it is deep in the nature that we share with all living things: the urge simply to live on. But we alone of animals---at least, as far as we know----have developed religions, artistic traditions and honor systems that give expression to this urge and transform it into sophisticated narratives. These are the result of the very particular way that we with our outsized minds, regard life and death---- a way that is deeply paradoxical.


Some are skeptical when they first hear the claim that a will to immortality is the underlying driver of civilization; it sounds to metaphysical to be the instinct behind our everyday actions, to mystical to explain the behavior of a creature evolved from the apes. But the origin of our eternal longings is neither mystical nor metaphysical---on the contrary, nothing could be more natural. That we strive to project ourselves into the future is a direct consequence of our long evolutionary legacy.


The Mortality Paradox

What sets us apart is, of course, our massive, highly connected brains. These too have evolved to help us perpetuate ourselves indefinitely, and they are enormously useful in the struggle to survive. Our awareness of ourselves, of the future and of alternative possibilities enables us to adapt and make sophisticated plans. But it also gives us a perspective on ourselves that is at the same time terrifying and baffling. On the one hand, our powerful intellects come inexorably to the conclusion that we, like all other living things around us, must one day die. Yet on the other, the one thing that these minds cannot imagine is that very state of nonexistence; it is literally inconceivable. Death therefore presents itself as both inevitable and impossible. This I will call the Mortality Paradox, and its resolution is what gives shape to the immortality narratives, and therefore to civilization.


But the second idea---and the other half of the Mortality Paradox---- tells us quite the opposite: that our own obliteration is impossible. The fact is, whenever we try to imagine the reality of our own deaths we stumble. We simply cannot envision actually not existing. Try it: you might get as far as an image of your own funeral, or perhaps a dark and empty void, but you are still there----the observer, the envisioning eye. The very act of imagining summons you, like a genie, into virtual being.
……we therefore cannot make death real to ourselves as thinking subjects.

[shunyadragon]

Interesting opening post and introduction to the book.I am interested enough to get the book on library loan and read it. I do not see a discussion on reincarnation here. Many beliefs do allow the possibility that the life of the soul amy be terminated in some instances and not immortal.

The Baha'i view is the immortality of the soul and a journey through many worlds. No heaven, hell or purgatory, or after life defined as reincarnation. The journey is basically undefined and unknown from the human perspective. There is an indication that sincerity in this world is a factor in the worlds beyond.

I do not believe in the necessity of immortality in the journey is an assumptions. By the evidence impermanence rules, and nothing is necessary.

[Pereynol of Sheer Dread]

Don't we all "see through a glass darkly?" We don't know what we will become---not yet. There are a lot of underlying assumptions on every front, as well as a lot of insecurity, IMHO.

[NormATive]

I think that this should prove to be a very enlightening thread - as long as it is not hijacked by the usual suspects.

I am in the process of reading this book, so I haven't formed a conclusion as to its usefulness. So far, it is a fascinating read. It kind of reminds me of Hawking's Brief History of Time in its fast-paced romp through the Egyptian obsession with immortality.

I am a non-theist, so I have no dog in the immortality fight. However, the notion that the quest for immortality (quest for fire?) is responsible for what we call civilization is intriguing.

I look forward to the ensuing discussion.

Unless it is hijacked. I hope that that doesn't happen.

NORM

[Doug Shaver]

But the second idea---and the other half of the Mortality Paradox---- tells us quite the opposite: that our own obliteration is impossible. The fact is, whenever we try to imagine the reality of our own deaths we stumble. We simply cannot envision actually not existing.

Our inability to envision something is no proof that it cannot happen. Reality is not constrained by the limits of human imagination.

[Tassman]

I also posted this on Facebook under a group called "OH, My God"....in case anyone is interested to join discussion that way.
--------------

Amazon Book Description
Publication Date: April 3, 2012 | ISBN-10: 0307884910 | ISBN-13: 978-0307884916 | Edition: 1

A fascinating work of popular philosophy and history that both enlightens and entertains,
Stephen Cave’s Immortality investigates whether it just might be possible to live forever and whether we should want to. But it also makes a powerful argument, which is that it’s our very preoccupation with defying mortality that drives civilization.

THESIS = makes a powerful argument, which is that it’s our very preoccupation with defying mortality that drives civilization.

Central to this book is the metaphor of a mountaintop where one can find the Immortals. Since the dawn of humanity, everyone – whether they know it or not – has been trying to climb that mountain. But there are only four paths up its treacherous slope, and there have only ever been four paths. Throughout history, people have wagered everything on their choice of the correct path, and fought wars against those who’ve chosen differently.

While Immortality takes the reader on an eye-opening journey from the beginnings of civilization to the present day, the structure is not chronological. Rather it is path driven. As each path is revealed to us, an historical figure serves as our guide.

In drawing back the curtain on what compels humans to “keep on keeping on,” Cave engages the reader in a number of mind-bending thought experiments. He teases out the implications of each immortality gambit, asking, for example, how long a person would live if they did manage to acquire a perfectly disease-free body. Or what would happen if a super-being tried to round up the atomic constituents of all who’ve died in order to resurrect them. Or what our loved ones would really be doing in heaven if it does exist. Or what part of us actually lives in a work of art, and how long that work of art can survive.

Toward the the book’s end, we’re confronted with a series of brain-rattling questions: What would happen if tomorrow humanity discovered that there is no life but this one? Would people continue to care about their favorite sports team, please their boss, vie for the title of Year’s Best Salesman? Would three-hundred-year projects still get started? If the four paths up the Mount of the Immortals lead nowhere -- if there is no getting up to the summit -- is there still reason to live? And can civilization survive?

Immortality is a deeply satisfying book, as optimistic about the human condition as it is insightful about the true arc of history.




Karibou's Commentary:

Was I ready to have all that I believe in,…turned upside down? This is what this book has done.

I just finished Immortality by Stephen Cave today (7/13.2012). I was clued into this book from the British podcast, “Unbelievable”….which continues to be my favorite podcast.

After reading this book my Christian belief and theology has not been rejected but it has certainly been challenged! That sounds pretty bad I know….but I can’t help but see that Stephen Cave has done good research and been very thoughtful in his study.

In the last couple of days I emailed and called Ravi Zacharias ministries because of the skepticism this book has left me with. I spoke with Margaret Manning and said I will be planning to update her time to time based on the interaction I receive from others. She recommended that I read “Surprised by Hope” by N. T. Wright. I appreciated the phone conversation. She told me how she lost her husband in this past year. She revealed that it is her personal opinion that there is finitude in death and she doesn’t find Biblical grounds to believe that we immediately go to into an afterlife upon death. She did say that a Christian can sustain a belief in resurrection and also have compatibility in believing in a “future” (not immediate) resurrection. She doesn’t see that God must be clear with us on the details of the afterlife and she feels that we can only be so accurate in what we “believe” to actually happen. Pastors would be out of business if they didn’t dispense Biblical hope….to put it bluntly. The same goes for many other religions. She was anxious to read this book after talking with me. I told her that is my firm belief that this book (once read through) will shake the beliefs of many intellectual Christians who have a bent towards skepticism. That said, I deeply admire the scholarship of N.T. Wright and I may find that his thoughts in his book to bring back more “hope”.

Overall, I guess you could say I’m deeply perplexed but not broken in my present Christian faith. Cave’s writings on the resurrection do give me more to consider and think over but I recognize his research or theories are not complete deal breakers. They make a Christian reconsider their position in the argument for a “physical” resurrection…. but his case doesn’t completely destroy the arguments already established by seasoned Christian apologists. I will be excited to see Christian apologist’s response to the questions he poses in this book.

At this point…..my intention is to go back through this book and make notes and look for dialogue with other Christians. I will probably use facebook for this, but may gather input via church.

I know this doesn’t sound at all positive……but I know that I want truth, as all people should……and……sometimes truth doesn’t fit with “all” that I desire personally or spiritually. Cave’s writing has sobered me up a good bit. At this point in my personal thought world….I do find that we may honestly be taking a belief that for all purposes…which actually could be “pie in the sky” to some degree.





Chapter 1 - A Beautiful Woman Has Come

Cave discusses the four Immortality Narratives. He says there are four basic forms:

1) Staying Alive
2) Resurrection
3) Soul
4) Legacy

*Everything below is taken from the first few pages up to page 7.

Staying Alive

It is a continuation of our attempts to stay young and healthy, to live that little bit longer, an extra year or two or ten.

Resurrection

The second narrative offers a backup plan: it claims that even if death finds us, we can have a second bite at life’s cherry. We can physically die and physically rise again with the bodies we knew in life.

Soul

The dream of surviving as some kind of spiritual entity. The majority of people on earth currently believe they have a soul. Believers in the Soul narrative have mostly given up on this earthly frame and believe in a future consisting of some more spiritual stuff.

Legacy

Requires neither the survival of the physical body nor an immaterial soul, but is concerned instead with more indirect ways of extending ourselves into the future.


These narratives are manifested in many forms, from ancient myths to political manifestos, but at least one is present in every culture, providing the milestones and signposts on life’s road. Some civilizations have followed a single path for thousands of years. Others have shifted from pursuing one path to the next. But no civilization has survived unsupported by one of the four: all have immortality narratives, and all immortality narratives fall into one of these four kinds.


Sunset of Aten

Cave moves into examples of the use of these narratives in the ancient past. He goes back to ancient Egypt as his main example. He tells the history of Nefertiti and Akhenaten. He explains how the couple which became rulers (or Pharoahs) of Egypt hijacked the immortality system for themselves.

-----------------

*Everything below is taken from page 13 to 28.

But what is it that that drives us first to create such systems and then fight and even die to defend them? The sheer universality of immortality narratives, the fact they seem to be central to every culture, suggests that the root is in human nature itself. Indeed, it is deep in the nature that we share with all living things: the urge simply to live on. But we alone of animals---at least, as far as we know----have developed religions, artistic traditions and honor systems that give expression to this urge and transform it into sophisticated narratives. These are the result of the very particular way that we with our outsized minds, regard life and death---- a way that is deeply paradoxical.


Some are skeptical when they first hear the claim that a will to immortality is the underlying driver of civilization; it sounds to metaphysical to be the instinct behind our everyday actions, to mystical to explain the behavior of a creature evolved from the apes. But the origin of our eternal longings is neither mystical nor metaphysical---on the contrary, nothing could be more natural. That we strive to project ourselves into the future is a direct consequence of our long evolutionary legacy.


The Mortality Paradox

What sets us apart is, of course, our massive, highly connected brains. These too have evolved to help us perpetuate ourselves indefinitely, and they are enormously useful in the struggle to survive. Our awareness of ourselves, of the future and of alternative possibilities enables us to adapt and make sophisticated plans. But it also gives us a perspective on ourselves that is at the same time terrifying and baffling. On the one hand, our powerful intellects come inexorably to the conclusion that we, like all other living things around us, must one day die. Yet on the other, the one thing that these minds cannot imagine is that very state of nonexistence; it is literally inconceivable. Death therefore presents itself as both inevitable and impossible. This I will call the Mortality Paradox, and its resolution is what gives shape to the immortality narratives, and therefore to civilization.


But the second idea---and the other half of the Mortality Paradox---- tells us quite the opposite: that our own obliteration is impossible. The fact is, whenever we try to imagine the reality of our own deaths we stumble. We simply cannot envision actually not existing. Try it: you might get as far as an image of your own funeral, or perhaps a dark and empty void, but you are still there----the observer, the envisioning eye. The very act of imagining summons you, like a genie, into virtual being.
……we therefore cannot make death real to ourselves as thinking subjects.

It sounds fascinating; will read. Reminiscent perhaps of Gore Vidal’s history/novel ‘Creation’, dealing with the explosion of ideas in the 5th century BCE when The Buddha was alive as well as Confucius and other great influences on civilization such as Herodotus, Pericles, Sophocles, Socrates and Aristotle. And, as well, Zoroaster, Pythagoras, Nebuchadnezzar and Lao-Tzu had recently died leaving zealous students behind…..…….

But I think the future world will belong to science and technology as per The Singularity and not the great thinkers as in the past - i.e. the technological creation of smarter-than-human and recursively self-improving and possibly immortal intelligence which will take us to horizons beyond our current ability to imagine.

[Tassman]

But the second idea---and the other half of the Mortality Paradox---- tells us quite the opposite: that our own obliteration is impossible. The fact is, whenever we try to imagine the reality of our own deaths we stumble. We simply cannot envision actually not existing. Try it: you might get as far as an image of your own funeral, or perhaps a dark and empty void, but you are still there----the observer, the envisioning eye. The very act of imagining summons you, like a genie, into virtual being.
……we therefore cannot make death real to ourselves as thinking subjects.

Maybe not but we did not exist before our birth either; in principle there is no difference.

[Rolo megatheist]

I must say Karibou that I'm thoroughly confused by your post. From the summary you've just given Cave's book seems like the sort of incredibly over simplistic history of mankind that dilettantes like pop out every now and then. I also don't see exactly what's so troubling with Cave's thesis or how this should in any way challenge your faith. The idea of explaining religion, God, or the afterlife on the basis of some overarching drive is an old trick of skeptical apologists. If anything it can be turned right back and argued that if there was a God we should have an innate desire for Him. If you could elaborate your concerns more hopefully I'd better understand what you're getting at.

[karibou]

Rolo, I have believed in afterlife up until this time. Now, I have serious doubt about it. It takes "faith" to believe in the resurrection of Jesus and our own resurrection. My faith has changed. I can say I believe in Jesus, Christian doctrines, etc. but I still don't know exactly what happens to our souls when we die..,..(and you don't...and even the smartest person on the planet doesn't right now...whoever that person may be)....if indeed we even have souls.

[NormATive]

I must say Karibou that I'm thoroughly confused by your post. From the summary you've just given Cave's book seems like the sort of incredibly over simplistic history of mankind that dilettantes like pop out every now and then. I also don't see exactly what's so troubling with Cave's thesis or how this should in any way challenge your faith. The idea of explaining religion, God, or the afterlife on the basis of some overarching drive is an old trick of skeptical apologists. If anything it can be turned right back and argued that if there was a God we should have an innate desire for Him. If you could elaborate your concerns more hopefully I'd better understand what you're getting at.

You may want to go to Amazon and at least read the sample section of the book before you pronounce judgement. It's written from an anthropological perspective, so the goal isn't an "old trick of skeptical apologists."

I'm about halfway through the book, and so far there is no "anti-Christian" bias that I can detect. Even devout Christians might learn something useful from this book.

NORM

[Rolo megatheist]

Rolo, I have believed in afterlife up until this time. Now, I have serious doubt about it. It takes "faith" to believe in the resurrection of Jesus and our own resurrection. My faith has changed. I can say I believe in Jesus, Christian doctrines, etc. but I still don't know exactly what happens to our souls when we die..,..(and you don't...and even the smartest person on the planet doesn't right now...whoever that person may be)....if indeed we even have souls.

I know what you're talking about Karibou and still don't necessarily see how a book which supposedly claims to show how civilization arose out of a preoccupation with immortality would necessarily be a challenge to a belief in an afterlife. All such a thesis would show at least from the summary you've provided me is that there are different ways cultures have viewed the afterlife or our relation to it, and civilization has been driven forward by those views. Is your problem simply that it provides a naturalistic explanation for the belief in an afterlife and therefore poses a challenge to your beliefs?

[Rolo megatheist]

You may want to go to Amazon and at least read the sample section of the book before you pronounce judgement. It's written from an anthropological perspective, so the goal isn't an "old trick of skeptical apologists."

I'm about halfway through the book, and so far there is no "anti-Christian" bias that I can detect. Even devout Christians might learn something useful from this book.

NORM

Regardless of whether it's written from an anthropological perspective or an anti-christian one, the fact of the matter is the claim that civilization exists because of some over arching purpose whether it be the search for immortality, power, or what not is an old one. I haven't read the book yet, but from what Karibou and others have said I simply don't see why Cave's thesis would be problematic to a belief in the afterlife.

[NormATive]

I haven't read the book yet, but from what Karibou and others have said I simply don't see why Cave's thesis would be problematic to a belief in the afterlife.

It challenges the traditionalist understanding of the afterlife. He explores how different religious expressions have added to this, and how this striving for immortality helped shape modern culture.

Still, you should at least check out the free excerpt on Amazon, so you can speak from knowledge on the subject.

NORM

[Rolo megatheist]

I did read the excerpts and found little which challenges an informed Christian understanding of the afterlife which Karibou supposedly held to. Can you explain what you mean by a "traditionalist understanding of the afterlife" and more importantly how the book challenges it?

[NormATive]

I did read the excerpts and found little which challenges an informed Christian understanding of the afterlife which Karibou supposedly held to. Can you explain what you mean by a "traditionalist understanding of the afterlife" and more importantly how the book challenges it?

Yeah, I checked out the excerpt - it stops about halfway through the chapter about Egyptian views on the afterlife. Sorry. You can purchase the e-book for just a few bucks.

The traditional understanding of the afterlife in Christianity is twofold:

1. Revivification of the actual body (evangelical Christian), and 2. The soul survives without the body (Catholic Christian and Islam).

In Hinduism and Buddhism, the soul is reincarnated in another human (or animal) body.

The book examines all of these views of the afterlife and points out some interesting conflicts.

I haven't found anything that directly challenges the "faith" of Christianity - just the view of the afterlife, and more specifically; how it influenced the development of human civilization.

I'm Jewish, and most folks in my congregation do not believe in an afterlife. We focus our religious energy on the here and now.

NORM