Gentile Church.

[Cerebrum123]

I have decided to read the BoM, and I found this.

1 Book of Nephi 13:4*And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church.

5*And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.

6*And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.

Does this refer to the Catholic Church, or all Churches that needed to be "restored". If doesn't refer to either of these, then what does it refer to? If the answer is yes, then you have the devil FOUNDING the modern Christian Church, against which "not even the gates of Hell will prevail". So, are you going to accuse the Bible of being wrong on this point, or are you going to accept that the BoM is wrong on this point?

[Kabane52]

In its original context, Smith was probably referring to the Roman Catholic Church. The consensual interpretation of the general authorities afterwards, however, seems to be that it refers to the apostate church, which, according to LDS, is of course not the referent of Christ's promise in Matthew 16.

[Cow Poke]

5*And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.

I just remember when I read this that it seemed a little heavy on the KingJamesish, with "tortureth" and "yoketh" - neither of which appear in the KJV.

[Sparko]

In its original context, Smith was probably referring to the Roman Catholic Church. The consensual interpretation of the general authorities afterwards, however, seems to be that it refers to the apostate church, which, according to LDS, is of course not the referent of Christ's promise in Matthew 16.

No it is referring to all of Christendom, except the LDS. The LDS are the "saints" that were being tortured and captured, etc. in that passage.

[Brown Cat]

I have decided to read the BoM, and I found this.

1 Book of Nephi 13:4*And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church.

5*And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.

6*And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.

Does this refer to the Catholic Church, or all Churches that needed to be "restored". If doesn't refer to either of these, then what does it refer to? If the answer is yes, then you have the devil FOUNDING the modern Christian Church, against which "not even the gates of Hell will prevail". So, are you going to accuse the Bible of being wrong on this point, or are you going to accept that the BoM is wrong on this point?

The LDS Church has the BOM online and verse 4 of 1 Nephi 13 has the word "great" as a hyperlink to related verses. Checking the link, you'll find verse 10 in the same chapter says:

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

I take that to mean that not only is the RCC in view but every other church or denomination that is not LDS.

[Cerebrum123]

The LDS Church has the BOM online and verse 4 of 1 Nephi 13 has the word "great" as a hyperlink to related verses. Checking the link, you'll find verse 10 in the same chapter says:

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

I take that to mean that not only is the RCC in view but every other church or denomination that is not LDS.

Yeah, I had read that, and I had recently downloaded a BoM, and have begun reading it. I am on 1 Book of Nephi 16 or 17, and it had been describing the "church that Satan founded", and has so far given a description that sounds straight out of Revelation about the Beast, and the Harlot.

1 Book of Nephi 14:10*And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

Sounds like Joseph Smith thought that the Christian Church of his day was as bad as the AntiChrist, and was the most evil organization on earth.

[Sparko]

Yeah, I had read that, and I had recently downloaded a BoM, and have begun reading it. I am on 1 Book of Nephi 16 or 17, and it had been describing the "church that Satan founded", and has so far given a description that sounds straight out of Revelation about the Beast, and the Harlot.

1 Book of Nephi 14:10*And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

Sounds like Joseph Smith thought that the Christian Church of his day was as bad as the AntiChrist, and was the most evil organization on earth.

According to Smith in his first vision:

"I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)--and which I should join.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

He again forbade me to join with any of them"

[OtherCheek]

I have decided to read the BoM, and I found this.

1 Book of Nephi 13:4*And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church.

5*And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.

6*And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.

Does this refer to the Catholic Church, or all Churches that needed to be "restored". If doesn't refer to either of these, then what does it refer to? If the answer is yes, then you have the devil FOUNDING the modern Christian Church, against which "not even the gates of Hell will prevail". So, are you going to accuse the Bible of being wrong on this point, or are you going to accept that the BoM is wrong on this point?

It was believed at one point by some, that this was referring to the Catholic Church. But that has been cleared up more recently.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/wa...atholic+church
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publ...7&num=1&id=168

This reference in Nephi refers not to a "church" in the sense of pews and pulpit and meeting houses. It refers to those inspired by satan working in collusion to "slay the saints of God." Or to "yoke" them, or to "bind them" in captivity. The Egyptians ran that game for a few hundred years. As did the Romans who slew many of the early Christians. Cain was one of the first to belong to that church. If your church does not engage in slaying of non-believers today then I don't think it qualifies.

[Sparko]

Amazing how things get "cleared up" to be politically correct and help mainstream the LDS church. Kinda like the misunderstanding about Polygamy and the Mark of Cain thing. Glad those got "cleared up"

[Cerebrum123]

It was believed at one point by some, that this was referring to the Catholic Church. But that has been cleared up more recently.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/wa...atholic+church
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publ...7&num=1&id=168

This reference in Nephi refers not to a "church" in the sense of pews and pulpit and meeting houses. It refers to those inspired by satan working in collusion to "slay the saints of God." Or to "yoke" them, or to "bind them" in captivity. The Egyptians ran that game for a few hundred years. As did the Romans who slew many of the early Christians. Cain was one of the first to belong to that church. If your church does not engage in slaying of non-believers today then I don't think it qualifies.

OC, is the quote Sparko gave from Joseph Smith real? If it is, then it DIRECTLY confirms that the BoM was talking about ALL Christendom in those passages, and the word that specifically points to that is "abomination". In the 1 Book of Nephi the "church founded by the devil" is referred to an "abomination". Sorry OC, but unless Joseph Smith never said the above, then you have no defense right now.

[Sparko]

OC, is the quote Sparko gave from Joseph Smith real? If it is, then it DIRECTLY confirms that the BoM was talking about ALL Christendom in those passages, and the word that specifically points to that is "abomination". In the 1 Book of Nephi the "church founded by the devil" is referred to an "abomination". Sorry OC, but unless Joseph Smith never said the above, then you have no defense right now.

Sorry, I should have given you a link.

It's from the official LDS church site: http://www.lds.org/library/display/0...-1-3-4,00.html

[nrajeff]

It was believed at one point by some, that this was referring to the Catholic Church. But that has been cleared up more recently.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/wa...atholic+church
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publ...7&num=1&id=168

This reference in Nephi refers not to a "church" in the sense of pews and pulpit and meeting houses. It refers to those inspired by satan working in collusion to "slay the saints of God." Or to "yoke" them, or to "bind them" in captivity. The Egyptians ran that game for a few hundred years. As did the Romans who slew many of the early Christians. Cain was one of the first to belong to that church. If your church does not engage in slaying of non-believers today then I don't think it qualifies.

That is my understanding as well. And I think it's possible for the degree to which a church goes for or against Christ to fluctuate over time. Luther didn't think too kindly toward certain things that were going on in the Catholic Church of his day, but I think that if he were to see all it does today, he might have a different opinion.

Americans thought Germany and Japan were pretty evil countries in the early 1940s, but those same Americans might have nothing against those countries today.

[Kabane52]

No it is referring to all of Christendom, except the LDS. The LDS are the "saints" that were being tortured and captured, etc. in that passage.

Yes, that's the consensual interpretation of the LDS Church, but when the Book of Mormon was first penned, there was not yet an idea of a Great Apostasy or a restored church. It was a document that was intended to solve the theological controversies of 19th century Protestantism, not serve as a charter for a new church. Hence, I believe that the consensual interpretation of the LDS Church was not Smith's intent. Smith probably intended to refer to the Catholic Church, and the persecution of the Protestants by the Catholics, along the lines of Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

[Sparko]

Yes, that's the consensual interpretation of the LDS Church, but when the Book of Mormon was first penned, there was not yet an idea of a Great Apostasy or a restored church. It was a document that was intended to solve the theological controversies of 19th century Protestantism, not serve as a charter for a new church. Hence, I believe that the consensual interpretation of the LDS Church was not Smith's intent. Smith probably intended to refer to the Catholic Church, and the persecution of the Protestants by the Catholics, along the lines of Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

that's not correct. as Joseph Smith's first vision attests, his plan from the beginning was to claim the Church was corrupt and he was restoring it. That is also what the BOM is all about. He "found" another gospel that confirmed that he was chosen by God to restore the church, based on the writings in the BOM.

Most of Smith's experience with the church was in Protestantism, and he was kicked out of some churches for his crazy ideas. So he decided to start his own religion. I don't recall him having any experience with the Catholic church at all from what I read.

[One Bad Pig]

That is my understanding as well. And I think it's possible for the degree to which a church goes for or against Christ to fluctuate over time. Luther didn't think too kindly toward certain things that were going on in the Catholic Church of his day, but I think that if he were to see all it does today, he might have a different opinion.

Americans thought Germany and Japan were pretty evil countries in the early 1940s, but those same Americans might have nothing against those countries today.

It's rather clear from Smith's first vision that this is a load of bovine fecal matter. How did pagan Rome or Japan draw near God with their lips?