Question for non-YEC

[yxboom]

First, I haven't checked if this question has been discussed ad nauseum so I apologize in advance. I am interested in how non-YEC understand death and specifically, death by design by a benevolent Creator. Is it incorrect to assume the YEC premise that death does not reflect the original intention of creation? If so, how do you reconcile or respond to these assumptions (Creator=good, death=bad)? Is there another way to understand and approach this issue?

[seer]

First, I haven't checked if this question has been discussed ad nauseum so I apologize in advance. I am interested in how non-YEC understand death and specifically, death by design by a benevolent Creator. Is it incorrect to assume the YEC premise that death does not reflect the original intention of creation? If so, how do you reconcile or respond to these assumptions (Creator=good, death=bad)? Is there another way to understand and approach this issue?

Perhaps like Satan infected man, he infected nature long before that - that was CS Lewis' take on it. My take is that perhaps God did not create nature/humans perfect but good, good meaning that it is useful, or fit, for the desired purpose. Perhaps perfection is where we are going, not where we have been.

[technomage]

*shrug* If you're not looking for non-Christian perspectives, ignore this post.

I don't necessarily posit a creator, benevolent or otherwise (though I do believe in one). Death is--indeed, it would be remarkable if it did not exist. Like everything else in the universe, we are subject to entropy.

But even to the purely materialist understanding, death is not the end. The body breaks down (even if we do silly things to try to prevent it, such as embalming or mummification). The constituent chemicals in the body are recycled into the earth, and some of the energy is recovered by the bacteria and vermin that cause putrefaction and decay.

You can think of it as Mother Nature's very own recycling program.

But there is a situation where cells reproduce and do not die. Indeed, that situation can be a tragedy for the one the phenomena occurs in. Five trivia points if you can guess what situation I am speaking of.

[Carrikature]

First, I haven't checked if this question has been discussed ad nauseum so I apologize in advance. I am interested in how non-YEC understand death and specifically, death by design by a benevolent Creator.

Beware: non-YEC is a pretty wide range so you may get a huge variety of answers. I'm sure you know that, though.

Is it incorrect to assume the YEC premise that death does not reflect the original intention of creation?

I think even within YEC it is incorrect to assume this premise. I wonder at the presence of a Tree of Life, were it not. Note, within a literal Genesis, Adam and Eve weren't restricted from eating of this tree. It is only when they were expelled from the garden that they lost access to it. In a way, Adam & Eve did die after they left, even if it wasn't immediately. (This also eliminates the need for a strained 'spiritual death' explanation.)

If so, how do you reconcile or respond to these assumptions (Creator=good, death=bad)? Is there another way to understand and approach this issue?

Frankly, I think our understanding of death as bad stems from a sense of personal loss. You often find terms like "they died too young" or "why did God take them from me", etc. These reflect a sense of emotional outrage towards some failing of the way things *should* work. Sure, these emotional responses are normal and perfectly ok. They don't necessarily reflect an accurate sense of the good/evil-ness of death, though.

[Chrawnus]

Frankly, I think our understanding of death as bad stems from a sense of personal loss. You often find terms like "they died too young" or "why did God take them from me", etc. These reflect a sense of emotional outrage towards some failing of the way things *should* work. Sure, these emotional responses are normal and perfectly ok. They don't necessarily reflect an accurate sense of the good/evil-ness of death, though.

I'm not really a non-YEC, so I won't be responding to the OP. Instead I just want to comment on this paragraph. I'd imagine that the reason most YEC feel that death is something evil that was not initially built into creation is not because of some negative emotional reaction (though those might be there too) towards the concept of death, but rather Bible passages like:

Rom 5:12 NASB

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

1Cr 15:21 NASB

For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.

1Cr 15:26 NASB

The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

1Cr 15:54-56 NASB

But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
"O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;

It all depends on how you interpret these passages of course (i.e is Paul speaking of physical or spiritual pain, and so on...), but atleast it's not (or should not atleast be) dependent on purely emotional reasons, atleast not for me.

[technomage]

I'd imagine that the reason most YEC feel that death is something evil that was not initially built into creation is not because of some negative emotional reaction (though those might be there too) towards the concept of death

As a non-Christian, I posit that the belief that generated these passages resulted (in part) from the aforementioned fear of/anger towards death. The problem with such a conjecture is it is not testable--I'd have to provide an evidence-based, interpersonally verifiable test for not just God, but specifically the Christian God, to actually test my argument.

But while it is not testable, it can be supported inductively. All cultures represented in history (i.e. all cultures that have a surviving text corpus) show one degree or another of "fear of death," regardless of their other religious beliefs--and this fear is reflected in their religious beliefs. The vast majority of living people, when asked, have some degree of "fear of death" (some dispute this, but every single one I am aware of who disputes it also demonstrate that fear when faced directly with the issue--my own experience is anecdotal evidence, but the concept of "fear of death" is a widely supported conclusion in psychology). We also see many, many attempts to provide an intellectual or emotional rationalization in death with all extant religions, and all cultures throughout history that left any writing on the topic.

Why would I, as an agnostic, come to the conclusion that Christianity was unique in this regard? Why would I not simply assume that, because of your beliefs, you sincerely (but erroneously) put the cart of belief before the horse of death-fear?

[lucaspa]

First, I haven't checked if this question has been discussed ad nauseum so I apologize in advance. I am interested in how non-YEC understand death and specifically, death by design by a benevolent Creator. Is it incorrect to assume the YEC premise that death does not reflect the original intention of creation? If so, how do you reconcile or respond to these assumptions (Creator=good, death=bad)? Is there another way to understand and approach this issue?

This is a theology question, not a science question. So I'm not sure why you are asking it here.

The problem is that equation "death = bad". YECs and a lot of other people seem to take that as physical death. But instead, the Bible is referring to spiritual death. In Genesis 2 when God tells Adam he will die if he eat the fruit, the Hebrew is very specific -- beyom -- that Adam will die within 24 hours of eating the fruit. But Adam lives for 900 years! So the passage isn't referring to physical death. Adam did die "in the day" that he ate the fruit: spiritually died. He disobeyed God, displeased God, and was therefore cut off from God.

Christians should have no fear of physical death. What's the big deal? Christians get to go be with God after death. Either thru the "soul" or by a future resurrection of the body (depending on the different beliefs within Christianity). What Jews and Christians really fear is being cut off from God. Spiritual death.

So the story in Genesis 2-3 is partly an explanation of how and why humans spiritually die. Answer: we disobey God because we are selfish and put our desires above God's desires. Adam and Eve are allegorical figures. They stand for each and every one of us. Each of us, sometime, disobeys God and dies spiritually. Jesus made that even more inevitable when he made thoughts into sins: looking a an attractive women and desiring her is adultery, wishing you had your neighbor's car is "coveting", thinking an angry thought about your neighbor is murder.

And thus each of us needs a Savior, because each of us dies spiritually in sin.

[lucaspa]

As a non-Christian, I posit that the belief that generated these passages resulted (in part) from the aforementioned fear of/anger towards death. The problem with such a conjecture is it is not testable

We can at least test those passages. And, as I pointed out, the passages are not talking about physical death. So this isn't coming from our instinctual fear of physical death. Instead, it is theology about fear of spiritual death. Remember, the Hebrews didn't have at that time any concept of an immortal soul. If there was a life after physical death, it was going to come with a bodily resurrection. And that was thought to be at some vague time in the future, if it was going to happen at all. Otherwise, Judaism held that physical death was physical death -- get used to it.

YEC wants this to be literal physical death because of Paul's argument in Romans. Paul was also talking about spiritual death, not physical. But literalists took it to be physical. So they look at Paul's argument literally and think that physical death had to come into the world with Adam so that Jesus can save us from physical death. Thus they build a huge house of cards and rationalize incessantly that no creature physically died before Adam and Eve at the fruit.

[lucaspa]

Perhaps like Satan infected man, he infected nature long before that - that was CS Lewis' take on it.

Are there any Biblical passages to back that up?

[seer]

Are there any Biblical passages to back that up?

No, just the musing of Lewis. "The Problem of Pain." Interesting book...

[technomage]

We can at least test those passages.

I cannot think of any scientific test for spiritual assertions. Some assertions that the Bible makes (such as a six-day creation) are untenable ... but then we get into arguments that range from "science falsely-so-called" to "bronze-age mythology."

Indeed, I cannot think of any test for spiritual assertions that is not subjective. Am I feeling the movement of the Spirit ... or the proverbial bit of undercooked potato or blot of mustard?

And, as I pointed out, the passages are not talking about physical death.

That specific distinction is not relevant to my thesis. "Fear of spiritual death" is obviously a much younger concept than "fear of death," a trait that even some animals seem to have.

Remember, the Hebrews didn't have at that time any concept of an immortal soul.

There is considerable question about that assertion. We can clearly demonstrate that there was a belief in an immortal soul (and a bodily resurrection) in some time periods of Hebrew cultural history--indeed, that was one of the distinctions between the Pharisees and the Sadducees. We can conjecture that there did not seem to be that belief in certain historic periods, as demonstrated by the earlier concept of Sheol. However, to take a document of disputed date and attempt to definitively state it belongs to a specific period of belief or non-belief is unjustifiable.

[Carrikature]

I'm not really a non-YEC, so I won't be responding to the OP. Instead I just want to comment on this paragraph. I'd imagine that the reason most YEC feel that death is something evil that was not initially built into creation is not because of some negative emotional reaction (though those might be there too) towards the concept of death, but rather Bible passages like:

Rom 5:12 NASB

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

1Cr 15:21 NASB

For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.

1Cr 15:26 NASB

The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

1Cr 15:54-56 NASB

But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
"O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;

It all depends on how you interpret these passages of course (i.e is Paul speaking of physical or spiritual pain, and so on...), but atleast it's not (or should not atleast be) dependent on purely emotional reasons, atleast not for me.

I appreciate your perspective on this. From my point of view, these passages don't really counter the concept I put forth, though. If death was not an issue until the Fall (via the Tree), then death certainly entered the world with sin. It may even be that death wasn't intended to be part of human experience, but that might be a stretch. Frankly, these aren't views espoused by anyone else I've encountered, and I'll willingly admit that I could have it wrong. My take certainly seems to be a more harmonious reading, at least to me.

This is a theology question, not a science question. So I'm not sure why you are asking it here.

Indeed, Theology or Christianity would likely be better. One of the owners of the site can do what he wants, though.

The problem is that equation "death = bad". YECs and a lot of other people seem to take that as physical death. But instead, the Bible is referring to spiritual death. In Genesis 2 when God tells Adam he will die if he eat the fruit, the Hebrew is very specific -- beyom -- that Adam will die within 24 hours of eating the fruit. But Adam lives for 900 years! So the passage isn't referring to physical death. Adam did die "in the day" that he ate the fruit: spiritually died. He disobeyed God, displeased God, and was therefore cut off from God.

It is my understanding that beyom doesn't always mean 'in that day'. From what I can tell, its usage in Numbers 26, for example, is a certain death that occurs over time. Obviously, all of those men didn't die instantly. If this is true, there is no reason to accept your explanation (common though it may be). The alteration to a spiritual death has always been deeply unsatisfying to me for various reasons. Not only is it not directly implied anywhere else in the Bible (so far as I'm aware), but it also doesn't match other context that clearly points to a physical death, such as the verses Chrawnus mentioned. Supplanting spiritual death has always seemed a sort of stop-gap solution. Physical death doesn't make sense if you expect immediate death. Spiritual death, therefore, must be the only answer. Hence my claim that the true understanding is that physical (human) death only became a real problem after access to the Tree was lost.

[technomage]

From what I can tell, its usage in Numbers 26, for example, is a certain death that occurs over time.

Are you referring to a different passage? To the best of my knowledge, beyom does not appear at all in Numbers 26.

[seer]

The alteration to a spiritual death has always been deeply unsatisfying to me for various reasons. Not only is it not directly implied anywhere else in the Bible (so far as I'm aware), but it also doesn't match other context that clearly points to a physical death, such as the verses Chrawnus mentioned. Supplanting spiritual death has always seemed a sort of stop-gap solution.

Romans 7:

Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

So when Paul "died" he did not physically die.

[yxboom]

Perhaps like Satan infected man, he infected nature long before that - that was CS Lewis' take on it. My take is that perhaps God did not create nature/humans perfect but good, good meaning that it is useful, or fit, for the desired purpose. Perhaps perfection is where we are going, not where we have been.

Do you believe that entropy no longer exists or is reversed after the resurrection?

I recall NT Wright speculating something along those lines using Rev 22:2 as a source text.

*shrug* If you're not looking for non-Christian perspectives, ignore this post.

I don't necessarily posit a creator, benevolent or otherwise (though I do believe in one). Death is--indeed, it would be remarkable if it did not exist. Like everything else in the universe, we are subject to entropy.

But even to the purely materialist understanding, death is not the end. The body breaks down (even if we do silly things to try to prevent it, such as embalming or mummification). The constituent chemicals in the body are recycled into the earth, and some of the energy is recovered by the bacteria and vermin that cause putrefaction and decay.

You can think of it as Mother Nature's very own recycling program.

Why do you think we experience grief over this?

But there is a situation where cells reproduce and do not die. Indeed, that situation can be a tragedy for the one the phenomena occurs in. Five trivia points if you can guess what situation I am speaking of.

Cancer, I imagine.

Beware: non-YEC is a pretty wide range so you may get a huge variety of answers. I'm sure you know that, though.

As Blizzard would say, "working as intended."

I think even within YEC it is incorrect to assume this premise. I wonder at the presence of a Tree of Life, were it not. Note, within a literal Genesis, Adam and Eve weren't restricted from eating of this tree. It is only when they were expelled from the garden that they lost access to it. In a way, Adam & Eve did die after they left, even if it wasn't immediately. (This also eliminates the need for a strained 'spiritual death' explanation.)

I understand it that death would be built into the system as a consequence, but not "working as intended."

Frankly, I think our understanding of death as bad stems from a sense of personal loss. You often find terms like "they died too young" or "why did God take them from me", etc. These reflect a sense of emotional outrage towards some failing of the way things *should* work. Sure, these emotional responses are normal and perfectly ok. They don't necessarily reflect an accurate sense of the good/evil-ness of death, though.

Jesus wept at Lazarus' passing, and He conquered death which indicates to me at least, death isn't a part of how things should work.