Risks of vaccination much greater than many people suppose?

[Carrikature]

Get a blog if you want to do that.

You misunderstand. A blog means that, most likely, no one will stumble across this nonsense, let alone read it. A internet forum practically guarantees a steady stream of readers, if only out of boredom.

[Sparko]

Have you had any vaccinations, Augustine?

[lilpixieofterror]

Have you had any vaccinations, Augustine?

That is how the government installed a computer chip into his brain, so they could read his thoughts. Ask his dog, he can hear it.

[Augustine2004]

Yes, I am OK--I guess.

[Augustine2004]

Depending on what you mean by incomplete this is no different than scientists arguing for which theory most likely fits the data. We don't field test whether the laws of physics are the same everywhere, as much. We take on current grounds that its reasonable that the experiment at the LHC describes events that would have taken place if the accelerator was built in Wisconsin, China or on the moon. Its something that can never be experimentally verified completely, since the only way to do that would be to perform all possible experiments, in all possible places, at all possible times.

Is that an argument against taking all the available evidence and concluding that vaccine risks outweigh the benefits? If so, I say, bah!

Historians have to figure out what events most likely were the ground for the mass of historical artifacts we have. This is not the same as performing experiments against hypotheses. Though proposed histories are testable in that they can be falsified by appeal to various problems with them, internal inconsistencies or newly discovered historical evidence.

Again, bah!

Take the science of figuring out what took place at a crime scene. That's a science if there ever was one, covering a several different paradigms of science: The science of how the human body decays, and what kind of marks are produced by what kinds of physical trauma. The science of the signs a human body leaves behind: Fingerprints, hair follicals. The science of physical objects used in different ways: Tracing a bullet, and figuring what kind of gun fired it. The science of human psychology as related to crimes. I'd say that even the art of putting together all this evidence in a whole is also a science. Despite detective novels romanticizing the notion of the gritty dick who's gut knows the truth, its really more of a painstaking and patient process of collecting evidence and weighing hypotheses.

You hardly address the issue of when medical doctors should decide. Wait until the evidence seems likely to be nearly complete?

There was a typo. I argued that you hadn't given any reasons that would warrant a complete rethinking about vaccines. There is no systematic evidence of serious harm that outweighs the benefits of the treatment. The autism-vaccine link was the most tenable one, and the evidence now shows that there's no correlation.

I don't think you should so easily dismiss what many people say.

Why should billions of dollars be wasted on repeating this research?

I think that unfortunately already much has been wasted. Why does the USA have the most expensive health care system in the world and yet get such poor results?

I know this was said about tobacco, but that's not a discussion I find relevant. To apply the precautionary principle, its not merely enough to stipulate vague news and suspicions. You have to show there is warranted doubt about the safety of vaccines.

So you say that doctors should not decide against some vaccines (note, I didn't say all).

Vaccines do not cause 2.7 million deaths per year, but not vaccinating would.

Prove Dr Mercola and all those others wrong. Mere assertion.

In general? No. The ones you have put in this thread? Yes.

Prove that I should not suspect that shows bias.

We can start with the Danish Epidemiology Science Centre in Aarhus in Denmark. That centre is funded primarily by government funds that wouldn't change one iota depending on how the research came out.

Mere assertion. How do you know?

If its just gonna be a news blasting session from you I won't stay around.

Great! I won't miss you.

There's no such thing as "Big Pharma".

So, despite the evidence I've presented, you see no fascistic relationship between large business and the USA government. Oh, I really don't care, I don't think you can prove that. Again, I won't miss you.

This is relevant why? Unless it can be shown that the majority of the donations for the studies came from a group that would benefit the research even more if that research turned out in a particular way, there's little reason to doubt the results.

Well, we would like to have data generated by groups that are independent of both the State and Big Business, but maybe you are unalterably thinking that the State and Big Business are staffed by angels.

[Sparko]

Yes, I am OK--I guess.

have you had any vaccinations?

[Augustine2004]

have you had any vaccinations?

Uh oh! Did YOU?

[Augustine2004]

Let me retell a joke.

Man: I have trouble sleeping.
Doctor: [After asking questions] This may help [hands over a bottle of Qraud, medicine that is supposed to help people sleep {fictional}].
Days later, the man is back in the doctor's office, looking like death warmed over.
Man: I got some sleep, but man those side effects!
Doctor: What side effects?
Man: I got nausea and I was up half the night vomiting. So I didn't get all the sleep!


The doctor examined the bottle's packing for the listing of side effects. Sure enough, nausea and vomiting was listed as side effects.


I'm afraid Lil Pixie would dismiss that story as merely "anecdotal." Like she thinks the doctor should just keep on prescribing Qraud, instead of switching the man's prescription to something else. Why should the switch be made, Qruad has the FDA stamp of approval!!
+++++++++++++++++++++++
This report makes not only the FDA but the DOD look bad. http://www.nvic.org/Downloads/bioshiled-letter.aspx

Moreover, the CDC came out against a recent recommendation to test an anthrax vaccine. That should be a bit of a surprise, the CDC has been accused of being practically a vaccine marketing department by Jenny Thompson of HSI.

Despite all those, the National Biodefense Science Board is pressing forward with that recommendation. There has been only one known death, and that was the one in the "anthrax by mail" attack in 2001. Yet there have been >7,000 reports of serious events (severe joint pain, brain inflammation, seizures, etc.) that may be linked to BioThrax, the vaccine in question. (To verify, click on National v info center and search "anthrax" Also see "Federal advisers endorse testing anthrax vaccine in children" Rob Stein, 10/28/2011 Wash. Post )

[Sparko]

Uh oh! Did YOU?

seriously. Have you had any vaccinations? Were they voluntary or something your parents insisted on when you were a child? And if you have, for what diseases?

And yes I have had vaccinations. I get a flu shot and a pneumonia shot every year, when I went to Europe a few years back I had to get some shots updated. I had the standard vaccinations when I was a child such as small pox, polio, etc. -- I have never had any side effects other than a sore arm.

[Quantum_Dragon]

Let me retell a joke.

Man: I have trouble sleeping.
Doctor: [After asking questions] This may help [hands over a bottle of Qraud, medicine that is supposed to help people sleep {fictional}].
Days later, the man is back in the doctor's office, looking like death warmed over.
Man: I got some sleep, but man those side effects!
Doctor: What side effects?
Man: I got nausea and I was up half the night vomiting. So I didn't get all the sleep!


The doctor examined the bottle's packing for the listing of side effects. Sure enough, nausea and vomiting was listed as side effects.


I'm afraid Lil Pixie would dismiss that story as merely "anecdotal." Like she thinks the doctor should just keep on prescribing Qraud, instead of switching the man's prescription to something else. Why should the switch be made, Qruad has the FDA stamp of approval!!
+++++++++++++++++++++++

That's not how prescriptions and prescribing medicine works. This summer, I was working at a free clinic and occasionally we would get calls from people asking to change their meds to a different type of medicine because they would get sick or have adverse reactions to it (which isn't part of a "conspiracy" because sometimes they are on other medication or they were some of the only people to have a bad reaction to it). We would just simply change their prescription to a medicine that does the same thing (and usually there are a few types of medicine that do do the same thing). In this case, the doctor would just prescribe something different than Qraud. Because sometimes medicine just works that way with some people. That doesn't mean it doesn't work the right way with most. (And if it didn't, the FDA wouldn't have approved it, simple)
Also, Augustine, just get a blog. Forum posts are meant for discussing things with others. Blog posts are so people can just question it in the comments.

[Sparko]

I like Qraud. It helps me sleep for weeks at a time. Great for those long cold winters. Recommended by 5 out of 7 hibernating Grizzly Bears (the other two are conspiracy nuts)

[Leonhard]

Uh oh! Did YOU?

Yes.

HugMeTee.png

[Augustine2004]

That was a joke based on reports of memory problems as possible side effects of vaccines.

Sorry, I don't recall details.

[Augustine2004]

Another example of discussion, I suppose.

It's OK for you to point out mistakes and places that need strengthing, though.

[Sparko]

That was a joke based on reports of memory problems as possible side effects of vaccines.

Sorry, I don't recall details.

so are you going to answer my questions about you getting vaccinations?