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US Presidential Pardons

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  • #16
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Not until she served 7 years in prison.
    John Walker served almost 30 years in prison before dying there for passing classified secrets to the enemy. Manning should have rotted there too. Or is Julian Assange suddenly NOT involved with Russia so you can save face?

    I think Trump realizes that he and his team are guilty of a lot worse than Chelsea Bradley Manning ever thought of being.
    Innuendoes about distributing false propaganda <<<<<<<<<<<<< treason

    The noose is tightening, and he is beginning to look for his best way out. Perhaps like Ukraine's Yanakovich, he'll flee to exile in Russia.
    This nothing burger keeps getting more nothing by the day.
    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 07-21-2017, 10:08 AM.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      No. Bradley Manning.
      It says Chelsea Manning most places I can see.

      And no it wasn't. He is a traitor.
      Considering what was released showing how much the US government lied about what it was doing, I don't see the problem with it. For some reasons conservatives, ironically, trust the government fully and completely, with total assent of their will so long as it comes to whatever the military and foreign intelligence is doing.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
        It says Chelsea Manning most places I can see.
        He wants people to call him that because he wants to be a girl. He's not, so I will not validate his insanity by calling him Chelsea.


        Considering what was released showing how much the US government lied about what it was doing, I don't see the problem with it.
        That's not all he released. He released methods of surveillance, locations of server farms where data was being housed, and a host of other things that the adversaries of the US could have used to cripple our intelligence community.

        For some reasons conservatives, ironically, trust the government fully and completely, with total assent of their will so long as it comes to whatever the military and foreign intelligence is doing.
        Not really. We see the right way to address problems isn't to empower our adversaries to cripple us.

        I find it odd that liberals are throwing Assagne under the bus as a Russian plant for Trump's alleged collusion, yet think he's an American hero when it comes to releasing actually damaging classified data given to him by Manning.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Bill the cat
          That's not all he released. He released methods of surveillance, locations of server farms where data was being housed, and a host of other things that the adversaries of the US could have used to cripple our intelligence community.
          The vast, insanely vast overreach of the NSA was one of the scandals released. Especially that they were actively trying to weaken security in various places, and threatening companies to get access to data. Even going so far as to intercept server hardware to install hardware based backdoors into the chipsets.

          The great thing we got out of it though is that the NSA is incapable of cracking RSA-2048/AES-256 encryption, which is the one used for online communication and ordinary server storage, which is why a lot are now pushing to make this default.

          Not really.
          No conservatives not only support what is going on, but have no problems allowing the NSA to do these things, and conservatives constantly defend the overreach of the US military, and their methods of torture. You have to search for a needle in a hay stack to find a conservative commentator criticizing these things.

          I hear more from "Christians" arguing that the CIA should put out a hitman on Mannings, than what was actually revealed. There's been far more threads on Mannings, than on whether US surveillance is starting to reach insane levels. I mean in pure server capacity they've become a third as big as Google. That's a lot of money wasted on making the government watch its own citizens.

          The NSA ought to shrink back to what it was before 9/11.

          Also, I have never seen conservatives, here, or elsewhere, actively advocate for a decrease in defense spending. Again. Big government is a-okay for conservatives, as long as its military and surveillance. No limits. No oversights. More cash.

          Prove me wrong. Find me the serious conservative political candidates and senators advocating for the opposite of this. I seriously have never seen it.

          I find it odd that liberals are throwing Assagne under the bus as a Russian plant for Trump's alleged collusion,
          I agree. I never bought into the russian allegations much, at least if there's dirt on Trump there's probably similar dirt on Hillary. It's all a weak attempt at distracting from the fact that Hillary simple lost. It was a narrow loss though, so I don't think anyone should look too much into reasons. Had the election taken place a week before or after, people might have been discussing why it was inevitable that Trump lost, etc...

          yet think he's an American hero when it comes to releasing actually damaging classified data given to him by Manning.
          I don't like Assange, he's a smug bastard, and he dropped the ball a lot on how this was to be handled using it more to prop up his own fame, rather than going about it like a journalist.
          Last edited by Leonhard; 07-21-2017, 12:48 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
            The vast, insanely vast overreach of the NSA was one of the scandals released.
            Along with how they were doing so. The recent WannaCry and Petya ransom ware attacks were built on information that Manning released.

            Especially that they were actively trying to weaken security in various places, and threatening companies to get access to data.
            Again, that's not all he released. In releasing the facts of the matter, he exposed the methods used, which seriously hurt US intelligence gathering efforts.

            Even going so far as to intercept server hardware to install hardware based backdoors into the chipsets.
            And much good intelligence has been obtained through clandestine methods like that. Exposing that method compromised some intelligence gathering methods in Iran's nuclear test facilities that we were using to keep tabs on their activities.

            The great thing we got out of it though is that the NSA is incapable of cracking RSA-2048/AES-256 encryption, which is the one used for online communication and ordinary server storage, which is why a lot are now pushing to make this default.
            Which is what Al Qaeda switched to after finding out the 3DES cypher they were using was crackable by US intelligence using a meet-in-the-middle attack. Again, methods that assisted our adversaries.


            No conservatives not only support what is going on, but have no problems allowing the NSA to do these things, and conservatives constantly defend the overreach of the US military, and their methods of torture. You have to search for a needle in a hay stack to find a conservative commentator criticizing these things.
            Hannity didn't seem particularly happy about it in his interview with Bill Binney.

            I hear more from "Christians" arguing that the CIA should put out a hitman on Mannings, than what was actually revealed.
            Then they are idiots. Capital Punishment belongs to the government, not a hit man.

            There's been far more threads on Mannings, than on whether US surveillance is starting to reach insane levels. I mean in pure server capacity they've become a third as big as Google. That's a lot of money wasted on making the government watch its own citizens.
            You'll get no argument from me about how stupid DISA is.

            The NSA ought to shrink back to what it was before 9/11.
            I agree. But that still shouldn't let Manning off the hook for exposing tactics and targets.

            Also, I have never seen conservatives, here, or elsewhere, actively advocate for a decrease in defense spending. Again. Big government is a-okay for conservatives, as long as its military and surveillance. No limits. No oversights. More cash.
            Why would we advocate for making the US defense weaker on the global stage? Our platform states that we are for a strong national defense. That's different from government agencies who solely exist to regulate businesses.
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            - Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              Along with how they were doing so. The recent WannaCry and Petya ransom ware attacks were built on information that Manning released.
              No, that's a myth. The Eternal Blue exploit came from the ShadowBrokers, a hacker group that allegedly got it from NSA who is stockpiling and hoarding exploits and weaknesses, with a policy never to inform the companies developing those kinds of software that those holes exist. Microsoft especially claims that NSA never informed them that this security weakness existed in their software.

              As for how it got to the ShadowBrokers its anyone's guess, but word of mouth indicates that the NSA has been highly careless with these techniques, where they were stored, who were in possession of them, etc.

              This one is all on the NSA's incompetence.

              Again, that's not all he released. In releasing the facts of the matter, he exposed the methods used, which seriously hurt US intelligence gathering efforts.
              I couldn't find details about where and when. For example about the hardware interception, most of the internal Top Secret NSA powerpoint presentations about that were cut down to just the general fact that this was occuring.

              And much good intelligence has been obtained through clandestine methods like that.
              And now that vein has run forever dry.

              Which is what Al Qaeda switched to after finding out the 3DES cypher they were using was crackable by US intelligence using a meet-in-the-middle attack. Again, methods that assisted our adversaries.
              Nobody should be using 3DES anymore, it was already going out of favor as an industry standard. AES-256 symmetric encryption, with RSA-4096 for the key exchange and verification and SHA-256 for the message digests, on everything.

              Encryption is now so strong that its unbreakable. AES-256 in particular is future proof against even theoretical quantum computer attacks. This was an inevitable development, and one the police and intelligence agencies have to live with. Attempts to ban encryption like this, is about as intelligent as attempts to ban guns in the US. It'll only harm law abiding civilians. Criminals/liberalists/geeks will still use secure encryption systems.

              Hannity didn't seem particularly happy about it in his interview with Bill Binney.
              I'd love to see a link. Because the only thing I see Republican politicians say is 'spend, spend, spend' when it comes to the military.

              Then they are idiots. Capital Punishment belongs to the government, not a hit man.
              Again, I've seen this again, and again, on forums, in comments, and heck even in conservative discussions online. It was one of the reasons I quite frankly started tuning them out. The CIA trusted to just assassinate citizens outside of courts, for criminal actions. That's a lot of power to happily trust the government with.

              You'll get no argument from me about how stupid DISA is.
              Aye

              I agree. But that still shouldn't let Manning off the hook for exposing tactics and targets.
              We'll have to disagree on that. Manning revealed a lot of practices the US was saying it didn't do, a lot of scandals regarding how much torture was used, how often on completely innocent people, how little was gained from it, the whole NSA monitoring the world scandal, and war scandals of all sorts including the true figures of civilian casualties and how indiscriminately drone attacks had been waged.

              Why would we advocate for making the US defense weaker on the global stage?
              The US shouldn't be the police of the world. Its a mentality that's been hanging around since Reagan. At least with him he was up against the Soviet Union, and him doubling, or tripling the national debt vastly increasing the size of the military was at least justifiable to a degree.

              Now its just a huge waste of money going from the government into business who's only interest is to make highly expensive contracts.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                He wants people to call him that because he wants to be a girl. He's not, so I will not validate his insanity by calling him Chelsea.
                When a man takes hormones and mutilates his body and pretends that he is a woman, that does not mean he is not still a man.

                ETA: to ad "not."
                Last edited by Jedidiah; 07-28-2017, 05:25 PM.
                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                  Obama pardoned the traitor Bradley Manning. Why did you forget that?
                  Did you forget Bush pardoning everybody in Iran-Contra, Bush Jr pardoning Libby, and Ford pardoning Nixon? Come on.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    The pardon of Richard Nixon, while politically unpopular at the time, may well have been the right thing for America in the long run, allowing it to move on. That was a bit of a special case; I'm not extrapolating from that to defend all other political pardons.
                    Nixon actually was a good president - better than Kennedy or Johnson honestly. People loved him all across the country. He ended the nightmare in Vietnam, made peace with China and Russia, expanded education, created the EPA, expanded scientific research, and overall represented the country very well. But he was paranoid of losing the presidency because he came so close before and lost, so he resorted to disgusting criminal schemes to 'protect' himself from a threat that didn't exist.

                    It's actually very sad.

                    In the end, his disgrace was enough.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
                      Nixon actually was a good president - better than Kennedy or Johnson honestly. People loved him all across the country. He ended the nightmare in Vietnam, made peace with China and Russia, expanded education, created the EPA, expanded scientific research, and overall represented the country very well. But he was paranoid of losing the presidency because he came so close before and lost, so he resorted to disgusting criminal schemes to 'protect' himself from a threat that didn't exist.

                      It's actually very sad.

                      In the end, his disgrace was enough.
                      Yes, a great man with feet of clay. As opposed to you-know-who being entirely clay.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
                        Did you forget Bush pardoning everybody in Iran-Contra, Bush Jr pardoning Libby, and Ford pardoning Nixon? Come on.
                        Of course I didn't. I think pardons are atrocious abuses of power.
                        That's what
                        - She

                        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                        - Stephen R. Donaldson

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          Of course I didn't. I think pardons are atrocious abuses of power.
                          So you would amend the Constitution to remove that power?
                          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                          Beige Federalist.

                          Nationalist Christian.

                          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                          Justice for Matthew Perna!

                          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                            So you would amend the Constitution to remove that power?
                            Pretty much.
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            - Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              Pretty much.
                              It's an interesting power. I wonder what was the reasoning of the Founding Fathers in creating it.

                              Offhand, it seems like they attempted to distribute power, rather than give it to an individual, so this seems very different. But it's also more of a power to "undo" rather than "do."
                              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                              Beige Federalist.

                              Nationalist Christian.

                              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                              Justice for Matthew Perna!

                              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                                It's an interesting power. I wonder what was the reasoning of the Founding Fathers in creating it.
                                I would think, in light of the Bill of Rights, and abuses still fresh in their mind from England, that they reserved the Presidential Pardon as a final check for somebody who was wronged by the system.

                                But that's just a guess.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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