How old is a person who is in his 15th year?

[nrajeff]

Give me the link again, Jeff, and I'll take a look at it.

Thanks

Just Google "Joseph Smith's First Vision Accounts--a Harmony" and you should be able to easily find it.

[Cow Poke]

Memorable? Of course. To the point of remembering, as a 14-yr-old kid, the exact date and time? No. But that's just reasonable me. YMMV.

Who asked for the exact date and time, Jeff?

[nrajeff]

Maybe reasonable people could agree that what would reasonably be expected for a 32-year-old, living in the 19th century, to remember about an event like this that happened when he was a 14-year-old, 18 years after the fact, would something between the two extremes of "Naturally he'd remember it down to the minute" and "He may not even get the decade right."

[nrajeff]

BTW, I can say, with a margin of error of maybe 2 years, when it was that I had a "born again" experience. I can't say with any certainty at all the exact year, let alone the month.

[Cow Poke]

Maybe reasonable people could agree that what would reasonably be expected for a 32-year-old, living in the 19th century, to remember about an event like this that happened when he was a 14-year-old, 18 years after the fact, would something between the two extremes of "Naturally he'd remember it down to the minute" and "He may not even get the decade right."

I think a reasonable person would expect that he would remember how old he was at the time if he really did experience "the greatest event in world history since the birth, ministry, and resurrection of Jesus Christ."

[Cow Poke]

BTW, I can say, with a margin of error of maybe 2 years, when it was that I had a "born again" experience. I can't say with any certainty at all the exact year, let alone the month.

January 17, 1971 -- it was a pretty important date in my life.

ETA: Technically, I guess I'd have to say Jan 18, since it was about 2 in the morning.

[Sparko]

Memorable? Of course. To the point of remembering, as a 14-yr-old kid, the exact date and time? No. But that's just reasonable me. YMMV.

what about to a 17 year-old?

and I never said the exact date and time, although if that happened to me I would have committed that to memory on the spot.

It seems Smith can't even get the year right. I sure hope you can at least remember the YEAR you got married.

If we can't trust Smith's memory about what YEAR it happened, how can we trust anything he claims he remembers God telling him?

[Sparko]

Maybe reasonable people could agree that what would reasonably be expected for a 32-year-old, living in the 19th century, to remember about an event like this that happened when he was a 14-year-old, 18 years after the fact, would something between the two extremes of "Naturally he'd remember it down to the minute" and "He may not even get the decade right."

so then how can you even trust anything about the vision? What he saw, what God said, etc?

[nrajeff]

I remember my trip to Niagara Falls, including some details. But I don't remember what year I went there.

[Cow Poke]

I remember my trip to Niagara Falls, including some details. But I don't remember what year I went there.

Was it anything close to "the greatest event in world history since the birth, ministry, and resurrection of Jesus Christ"? Or was it just a nice family vacation.

[Sparko]

I remember my trip to Niagara Falls, including some details. But I don't remember what year I went there.

wow Jeff.

Comparing a vacation to meeting God in person.

[Sparko]

Was it anything close to "the greatest event in world history since the birth, ministry, and resurrection of Jesus Christ"? Or was it just a nice family vacation.

Do Jeff and OC realize how much they are hurting their own cause by coming up with these lame excuses and then defending them to the death with examples such as these?

[One Bad Pig]

Just Google "Joseph Smith's First Vision Accounts--a Harmony" and you should be able to easily find it.

Is there some reason why you didn't just provide a link?

[Cow Poke]

With respect to the actual OP of the thread...

From a link Jeff provided to LDS.org for other purposes, the confusion over Smith's intended meaning of "in my 15th year" gets a little more confusing.

First, he uses the expression... (bolding mine throughout)
"7 I was at this time in my fifteenth year." This is held by OC to mean he was 14 years of age.

Then Smith says it was just a few days after the alleged event that he was talking with a Methodist preacher, and was treated with contempt....

LDS.org

21 Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt....

© source where applicable

In the same narrative, he expresses surprise that he was opposed, and here identifies himself as "between 14 and fifteen".

LDS.org

22 I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great apersecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age,

© source where applicable

And, same narration, he continues to complain of the opposition, but this times says he is "a little over fourteen years of age".

LDS.org

23 It caused me serious reflection then, and often has since, how very strange it was that an obscure aboy, of a little over fourteen years of age,

© source where applicable

I don't think, therefore, that there should be any surprise that the expression "in my fifteenth year", as used by Smith, could mean "14", or "between 14 and 15", or "a little above 14", which would be 15. And all of this from Smith's own narrative.

Perhaps the poll should include an option "all of the above"?

[One Bad Pig]

With respect to the actual OP of the thread...

From a link Jeff provided to LDS.org for other purposes, the confusion over Smith's intended meaning of "in my 15th year" gets a little more confusing.

First, he uses the expression... (bolding mine throughout)
"7 I was at this time in my fifteenth year." This is held by OC to mean he was 14 years of age.

Then Smith says it was just a few days after the alleged event that he was talking with a Methodist preacher, and was treated with contempt....

LDS.org

21 Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt....

© source where applicable

In the same narrative, he expresses surprise that he was opposed, and here identifies himself as "between 14 and fifteen".

LDS.org

22 I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great apersecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age,

© source where applicable

And, same narration, he continues to complain of the opposition, but this times says he is "a little over fourteen years of age".

LDS.org

23 It caused me serious reflection then, and often has since, how very strange it was that an obscure aboy, of a little over fourteen years of age,

© source where applicable

I don't think, therefore, that there should be any surprise that the expression "in my fifteenth year", as used by Smith, could mean "14", or "between 14 and 15", or "a little above 14", which would be 15. And all of this from Smith's own narrative.

Perhaps the poll should include an option "all of the above"?

I'm not sure why you're confused here. "A little above 14" would be less than 15, and probably less than "14 and a half."