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The Culture of Suicide

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    I mean the person has no future. We don't consider removing life support to be a sin in terminal patients. We don't know who that person's presence on Earth might benefit if we kept them on life support. So that is not the criteria we use. How much they can benefit someone else. That is not the only reason we keep someone around. Heck we consider it a mercy to put down animals who are suffering. Why?

    If someone is terminal (there is no chance of recovery, they ARE going to die soon) and they are in pain so great that they are suffering, how is it wrong to allow them to kill themselves?

    I know when I was sick a couple of years ago with liver problems and such, there were times I was laying on the bed writhing in agony wishing I was dead and I could not take any pain meds because they go through the liver. I knew I had a future and so I endured - but barely, but if I didn't have a future, I think I might have killed myself to end the pain. You can't imagine how bad pain can be. I can't imagine God wanting to see one of his children endure it if there is no future for them.
    You're confusing passive euthanasia with active. Passive is pulling the plug and letting nature do what it does. Active is taking nature into your own hands.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
      You're confusing passive euthanasia with active. Passive is pulling the plug and letting nature do what it does. Active is taking nature into your own hands.
      no I am not confusing anything. I was contrasting the two to make a point.

      You made the point that a terminal person's life in suffering might have some "benefit" - meaning I guess, that they should hang on in case they might be able to help someone else in some way, despite being in horrific pain and dying soon, so they should not kill themselves.

      I countered that the exact same excuse could be used for someone who is on life support and in pain. Why can't you say that they might still benefit someone else so they should remain on life support even though they are in horrible pain?

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      • #18
        What about the fact that severely depressed people are not thinking straight and thus believe everyone would be better off with out them? Mental illness is horrible and it doesn't help the stigma to to make a blanket statement about all suicide. It's complex and God alone will judge any mitigating factors. But if someone was in their right mind and did it for selfish reasons(debt??? Why would anyone in their right mind ever kill themselves?), it would definitely be a sin.
        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          no I am not confusing anything. I was contrasting the two to make a point.

          You made the point that a terminal person's life in suffering might have some "benefit" - meaning I guess, that they should hang on in case they might be able to help someone else in some way, despite being in horrific pain and dying soon, so they should not kill themselves.

          I countered that the exact same excuse could be used for someone who is on life support and in pain. Why can't you say that they might still benefit someone else so they should remain on life support even though they are in horrible pain?
          It depends on if they have a terminal case or not and are dying or not. To end one's life early is to say nothing is worth the pain.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
            It depends on if they have a terminal case or not and are dying or not. To end one's life early is to say nothing is worth the pain.
            That is why I made it clear that we were talking about someone who had no chance to recover, they were close to death and also that pain management was not available or working. I think that if you are terminal and NOT suffering, that you should not take your life. But living in torture with no chance to get better? that's a different story.

            Of course if you are not a Christian, your ultimate outcome might not be any better.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              What if you are bed-ridden and terminal (say with cancer) and you are in extreme pain that the medicine can't relieve? Taking your own life might relieve months of laying in a bed in extreme pain.
              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              Nonetheless, "thou shalt not murder" is a clear biblical commandment and while I feel for people in such pain, I don't see an exception written into the Bible there.
              Another matter that I choose to leave in God's hand. I won't condemn someone in that situation, but I reject that as support for legalized euthanasia.
              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                I don't want to speak as to what God would or would not do, but by definition it's impossible to repent of suicide.
                Can you give me some clear Biblical support calling suicide murder. It may be there, but I do not recall it.
                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  The whole premise of Christianity is that you are already forgiven for everything you will ever do from the moment you truly trust Jesus to be your Savior.
                  Would you accept this modification of your statement? There is no magical statement that provides the "get out of hell free" card.
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                    Can you give me some clear Biblical support calling suicide murder. It may be there, but I do not recall it.
                    Murder is the unjustified (i.e. outside of the context of war, capital punishment, self defense, etc.) killing of another, and I don't see why suicide wouldn't apply.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                      What about the fact that severely depressed people are not thinking straight and thus believe everyone would be better off with out them? Mental illness is horrible and it doesn't help the stigma to to make a blanket statement about all suicide. It's complex and God alone will judge any mitigating factors. But if someone was in their right mind and did it for selfish reasons(debt??? Why would anyone in their right mind ever kill themselves?), it would definitely be a sin.
                      I'm glad someone said this. People commit suicide because their brain is broken. It's not a selfishness thing.


                      AP, for someone whose wife has attempted suicide, you don't seem to show the first clue what's behind it. I'm dismayed for her. Why wouldn't you try to educate yourself on it more?
                      I'm not here anymore.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                        I'm glad someone said this. People commit suicide because their brain is broken. It's not a selfishness thing.


                        AP, for someone whose wife has attempted suicide, you don't seem to show the first clue what's behind it. I'm dismayed for her. Why wouldn't you try to educate yourself on it more?
                        She's not dismayed for her. She had no problem with what I said, other than some parts at the beginning about the bands and such.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          Murder is the unjustified (i.e. outside of the context of war, capital punishment, self defense, etc.) killing of another, and I don't see why suicide wouldn't apply.
                          That is pretty much the traditional interpretation. I have never done a study on it, and thought you might have some info. I am not a suicide supporter, as you may have noticed. Just doubtful on extreme cases, and would not condemn in some of those type cases - as long as there is not a legal system to approve it.
                          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            Murder is the unjustified (i.e. outside of the context of war, capital punishment, self defense, etc.) killing of another, and I don't see why suicide wouldn't apply.
                            how do you know killing yourself when you are in horrible pain and there is no hope of survival is not justified?

                            what if you were in a war, your guts shot out, laying there bleeding out and in horrible pain and no help available. would it be wrong to shoot yourself and end the pain rather than lay there slowly dying in pain?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                              I'm glad someone said this. People commit suicide because their brain is broken. It's not a selfishness thing.
                              How is it not? "Everyone would be better off without ME" is all about ME. The person committing suicide in that situation isn't actually taking into account anyone else's input. That their brain is broken doesn't change this.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                How is it not? "Everyone would be better off without ME" is all about ME. The person committing suicide in that situation isn't actually taking into account anyone else's input. That their brain is broken doesn't change this.
                                They aren't capable of realizing it at the time. Which is why they need someone else to tell them that everyone would miss them and that they aren't alone and others can help them and that better options exist.
                                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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