Originally posted by Sparko
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Notice – The ministries featured in this section of TheologyWeb are guests of this site and in some cases not bargaining for the rough and tumble world of debate forums, though sometimes they are. Additionally, this area is frequented and highlighted for guests who also very often are not acclimated to debate fora. As such, the rules of conduct here will be more strict than in the general forum. This will be something within the discretion of the Moderators and the Ministry Representative, but we simply ask that you conduct yourselves in a manner considerate of the fact that these ministries are our invited guests. You can always feel free to start a related thread in general forum without such extra restrictions. Thank you.
Deeper Waters is founded on the belief that the Christian community has long been in the shallow end of Christianity while there are treasures of the deep waiting to be discovered. Too many in the shallow end are not prepared when they go out beyond those waters and are quickly devoured by sharks. We wish to aid Christians to equip them to navigate the deeper waters of the ocean of truth and come up with treasure in the end.
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General TheologyWeb forum rules: here.
Deeper Waters is founded on the belief that the Christian community has long been in the shallow end of Christianity while there are treasures of the deep waiting to be discovered. Too many in the shallow end are not prepared when they go out beyond those waters and are quickly devoured by sharks. We wish to aid Christians to equip them to navigate the deeper waters of the ocean of truth and come up with treasure in the end.
We also wish to give special aid to those often neglected, that is, the disabled community. This is especially so since our founders are both on the autism spectrum and have a special desire to reach those on that spectrum. While they are a special emphasis, we seek to help others with any disability realize that God can use them and that they are as the Psalmist says, fearfully and wonderfully made.
General TheologyWeb forum rules: here.
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The Culture of Suicide
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostYou're confusing passive euthanasia with active. Passive is pulling the plug and letting nature do what it does. Active is taking nature into your own hands.
You made the point that a terminal person's life in suffering might have some "benefit" - meaning I guess, that they should hang on in case they might be able to help someone else in some way, despite being in horrific pain and dying soon, so they should not kill themselves.
I countered that the exact same excuse could be used for someone who is on life support and in pain. Why can't you say that they might still benefit someone else so they should remain on life support even though they are in horrible pain?
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What about the fact that severely depressed people are not thinking straight and thus believe everyone would be better off with out them? Mental illness is horrible and it doesn't help the stigma to to make a blanket statement about all suicide. It's complex and God alone will judge any mitigating factors. But if someone was in their right mind and did it for selfish reasons(debt??? Why would anyone in their right mind ever kill themselves?), it would definitely be a sin.If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postno I am not confusing anything. I was contrasting the two to make a point.
You made the point that a terminal person's life in suffering might have some "benefit" - meaning I guess, that they should hang on in case they might be able to help someone else in some way, despite being in horrific pain and dying soon, so they should not kill themselves.
I countered that the exact same excuse could be used for someone who is on life support and in pain. Why can't you say that they might still benefit someone else so they should remain on life support even though they are in horrible pain?
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostIt depends on if they have a terminal case or not and are dying or not. To end one's life early is to say nothing is worth the pain.
Of course if you are not a Christian, your ultimate outcome might not be any better.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhat if you are bed-ridden and terminal (say with cancer) and you are in extreme pain that the medicine can't relieve? Taking your own life might relieve months of laying in a bed in extreme pain.Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostNonetheless, "thou shalt not murder" is a clear biblical commandment and while I feel for people in such pain, I don't see an exception written into the Bible there.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostI don't want to speak as to what God would or would not do, but by definition it's impossible to repent of suicide.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe whole premise of Christianity is that you are already forgiven for everything you will ever do from the moment you truly trust Jesus to be your Savior.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostCan you give me some clear Biblical support calling suicide murder. It may be there, but I do not recall it."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostWhat about the fact that severely depressed people are not thinking straight and thus believe everyone would be better off with out them? Mental illness is horrible and it doesn't help the stigma to to make a blanket statement about all suicide. It's complex and God alone will judge any mitigating factors. But if someone was in their right mind and did it for selfish reasons(debt??? Why would anyone in their right mind ever kill themselves?), it would definitely be a sin.
AP, for someone whose wife has attempted suicide, you don't seem to show the first clue what's behind it. I'm dismayed for her. Why wouldn't you try to educate yourself on it more?I'm not here anymore.
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Originally posted by Carrikature View PostI'm glad someone said this. People commit suicide because their brain is broken. It's not a selfishness thing.
AP, for someone whose wife has attempted suicide, you don't seem to show the first clue what's behind it. I'm dismayed for her. Why wouldn't you try to educate yourself on it more?
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostMurder is the unjustified (i.e. outside of the context of war, capital punishment, self defense, etc.) killing of another, and I don't see why suicide wouldn't apply.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostMurder is the unjustified (i.e. outside of the context of war, capital punishment, self defense, etc.) killing of another, and I don't see why suicide wouldn't apply.
what if you were in a war, your guts shot out, laying there bleeding out and in horrible pain and no help available. would it be wrong to shoot yourself and end the pain rather than lay there slowly dying in pain?
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Originally posted by Carrikature View PostI'm glad someone said this. People commit suicide because their brain is broken. It's not a selfishness thing.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostHow is it not? "Everyone would be better off without ME" is all about ME. The person committing suicide in that situation isn't actually taking into account anyone else's input. That their brain is broken doesn't change this.If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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