Is the LDS church pagan or not?

[Sparko]

Webster:

1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)

Now they claim to only follow ONE God, but in fact they follow at least 3 Gods and believe in an infinite number of other gods.

So by that definition they could be called Pagan. But then the God(s) they claim to follow are the Judeo-Christian God.

So are they pagan or a Christian sect? or both?

[Cow Poke]

Webster:

1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)

Now they claim to only follow ONE God, but in fact they follow at least 3 Gods and believe in an infinite number of other gods.

So by that definition they could be called Pagan. But then the God(s) they claim to follow are the Judeo-Christian God.

So are they pagan or a Christian sect? or both?

They appear to have started out as Trinitarians with doctrines very much like orthodoxy, according to Thomas Alexander's "The Reconstruction of Mormon Doctrine"...

Alexander

The doctrines of God and man revealed in these sources were not greatly different from those of some of the religious denominations of the time. Marvin Hill has argued that the Mormon doctrine of man in New York contained elements of both Calvinism and Arminianism, though tending toward the latter. The following evidence shows that it was much closer to the moderate Arminian position, particularly in rejecting the Calvinist emphasis on absolute and unconditional predestination, limited atonement, total depravity, and absolute perseverance of the elect. It will further demonstrate that the doctrine of God preached and believed before 1835 was essentially trinitarian, with God the Father seen as an absolute personage of Spirit, Jesus Christ as a personage of tabernacle, and the Holy Ghost as an impersonal spiritual member of the Godhead.

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What would you call a religion that started out fairly orthodox, then shifted to multiple Gods?

[nrajeff]

monolatrist

[Catholicity]

What would you call a religion that started out fairly orthodox, then shifted to multiple Gods

Shifty.

[nrajeff]

Roman Catholic (added worship of Mary)

[One Bad Pig]

Webster:

1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)

Now they claim to only follow ONE God, but in fact they follow at least 3 Gods and believe in an infinite number of other gods.

So by that definition they could be called Pagan. But then the God(s) they claim to follow are the Judeo-Christian God.

So are they pagan or a Christian sect? or both?

You left out a key part of the definition:

1 heathen; especially: a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)

So we need to refer to the definition for heathen:

1. an unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of the Bible

Since the LDS claim to acknowledge the God of the Bible, it's probably not accurate to call them pagan.

[Cow Poke]

What is curious to me is why God would "restore" His Church as a fairly orthodox institution, then CHANGE the Church to be something totally different....

God begins as a "personage of spirit", and sounds very much like the orthodox God: "the only supreme governor, an independent being, in whom all fulness and perfection dwells; who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient; without beginning of days or end of life."

The Reconstruction of Mormon Doctrine

The Book of Mormon tended to define God as an absolute personage of spirit who, clothed in flesh, revealed himself in Jesus Christ (Abinidi's sermon to King Noah in Mosiah chapters 13-14 is a good example). The first issue of the Evening and Morning Star published a similar description of God, the "Articles and Covenants of the Church of Christ," which was the Church's first statement of faith and practice. With some additions, the "Articles" became section 20 of the Doctrine and Covenants. The "Articles," which according to correspondence in the Star was used with the Book of Mormon in proselytizing, indicated that "there is a God in heaven who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting, the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth and all things which are in them." The Messenger and Advocate published numbers 5 and 6 of the Lectures on Faith, which defined the "Father" as "the only supreme governor, an independent being, in whom all fulness and perfection dwells; who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient; without beginning of days or end of life." In a letter published in the Messenger and Advocate, Warren A. Cowdery argues that "we have proven to the satisfaction of every intelligent being, that there is a great first cause, prime mover, self-existent, independent and all wise being whom we call God . . . immutable in his purposes and unchangeable in his nature."

© source where applicable

[lilpixieofterror]

Roman Catholic (added worship of Mary)

You're ignorance of what the RCC believes is noted and dismissed as such.

[Sparko]

You left out a key part of the definition:

1 heathen; especially: a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)

So we need to refer to the definition for heathen:

1. an unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of the Bible

Since the LDS claim to acknowledge the God of the Bible, it's probably not accurate to call them pagan.

I take "Heathen" as part of the definition of Pagan is meant as a subset of paganism, or a synonym.

Santeria mixes voodoo and Catholicism together into a very strange religion, and they have absconded with using God and the Saints to create a pantheon of Gods, each controlling various aspects of magic. What would you classify them as?

It seems that the LDS church claims to worship the Christian God, but their idea of who and what he is, sounds more like Zeus than YHWH.

[Cow Poke]

It seems that the LDS church claims to worship the Christian God, but their idea of who and what he is, sounds more like Zeus than YHWH.

I think, in their earlier years, the Mormon God was much more like we understand God to be.

[Sparko]

I think, in their earlier years, the Mormon God was much more like we understand God to be.

yep. sounds nearly trinitarian (with some modalism tossed in) in the BoM.

It seems to have evolved as Smith became more authoritarian and needed more material to keep the people enthralled with him.

[mossrose]

I would more likely call them heretical. They teach another Christ.

[Cow Poke]

yep. sounds nearly trinitarian (with some modalism tossed in) in the BoM.

It seems to have evolved as Smith became more authoritarian and needed more material to keep the people enthralled with him.

I like what Alexander does -- rather than just use a bunch of quotes, he has researched the publications of the day, especially publications officially supported by the Mormon Church, to see not only what was taught, but how it was understood by its followers at the time. And he uses articles from the various publications of the Mormon Church at the time, for example: The Evening and the Morning Star and the Latter Day Saints Messenger and Advocate.

The Reconstruction of Mormon Doctrine

Church publications from this period are important sources of doctrine and doctrinal commentary, given the lack of diaries. After the publication of the Book of Mormon in 1830, the Church supported The Evening and the Morning Star in Independence (June 1832-July 1833) and Kirtland (December 1833-September 1834). In October 1834, the Latter Day Saints Messenger and Advocate (Kirtland, October 1834-September 1837) replaced the Star. Both monthlies published expositions on doctrine, letters from Church members, revelations, minutes of conferences, and other items of interest. William W. Phelps published a collection of Joseph Smith's revelations in the 1833 Book of Commandments, but destruction of the press and most copies left the Star and Messenger virtually the only sources of these revelations until 1835. In that year, the Doctrine and Covenants, which included the Lectures on Faith and presented both revelation and doctrinal exposition, was published.

© source where applicable

This does a great job of giving us a window into what was actually THOUGHT about what was being taught, rather than having to ASSUME that, "well, they meant this... " or "this is what Smith was really saying...". Since the publications were official Church entities, it can't be argued that "well, that's not OFFICIAL". (well, it CAN be argued, but not with any conviction)

[One Bad Pig]

I take "Heathen" as part of the definition of Pagan is meant as a subset of paganism, or a synonym.

But that seems to be backwards. If you look at the structure of the definition, pagan is the narrower term. Regardless, it is a Christian term for those who do not follow the God of the Bible.

Santeria mixes voodoo and Catholicism together into a very strange religion, and they have absconded with using God and the Saints to create a pantheon of Gods, each controlling various aspects of magic. What would you classify them as?

Heretics.

It seems that the LDS church claims to worship the Christian God, but their idea of who and what he is, sounds more like Zeus than YHWH.

Sounds like heretics to me. The gnostics were considered heretics, not pagans, and some of their beliefs were really strange.

[Cow Poke]

It seems that James E. Talmage, a had a great influence on the changing of Mormon doctrine, particularly with regards to the "Godhead".

Here's a little bit about Talmage...

BYHigh.org

Dr. Talmage was the author of many scientific and theological works, among which are: "First Book of Nature" (1888); "Domestic Science" (1891); "Tables for Blowpipe Determination of Minerals" (1899); "The Great Salt Lake, Present and Past" (1900); "The Articles of Faith" (1899), a comprehensive exposition of the doctrines of the Church; "The Great Apostasy" (1909); "The House of the Lord" (1912), a discussion of holy sanctuaries, ancient and modern; "The Story of Mormonism" (1907); lectures delivered at Michigan, Cornell and other universities; "The Philosophical Basis of Mormonism" (1915); "Jesus the Christ" (1915); "The Vitality of Mormonism" (1919), and numerous pamphlets and contributions to periodicals.

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According to Alexander, at the turn of the century, Talmage, Roberts and Widtsoe began to have an impact on the future teachings of Mormonism...

The Reconstruction of Mormon Doctrine

By 1890 the doctrines preached in the Church combined what would seem today both familiar and strange. Yet, between 1890 and 1925 these doctrines were reconstructed principally on the basis of works by three European immigrants, James E. Talmage, Brigham H. Roberts, and John A. Widtsoe. Widtsoe and Talmage did much of their writing before they became Apostles, but Roberts served as a member of the First Council of the Seventy during the entire period.

© source where applicable

It appears that, in the beginning of Mormonism, God was a spirit, without a body, but that changed. Then there was discussion over whether the Holy Spirit actually had a body.

The Reconstruction of Mormon Doctrine

Perhaps the most important doctrine addressed was the doctrine of the Godhead, which was reconstructed beginning in 1893 and 1894. During that year James E. Talmage, president of Latter-day Saints University and later president and professor of geology at the University of Utah, gave a series of lectures on the Articles of Faith to the theological class of LDSU. In the fall of 1898 the First Presidency asked him to rewrite the lectures and present them for approval as an exposition of Church doctrines. In the process, Talmage reconsidered and reconstructed the doctrine of the Holy Ghost. In response to questions raised by Talmage's lectures, George Q. Cannon, "commenting on the ambiguity existing in our printed works concerning the nature or character of the Holy Ghost, expressed his opinion that the Holy Ghost was in reality a person, in the image of the other members of the Godhead-a man in form and figure; and that what we often speak of as the Holy Ghost is in reality but the power or influence of the spirit." The First Presidency on that occasion, however, "deemed it wise to say as little as possible on this as on other disputed subjects."

© source where applicable

So, nearly 70 years after the Mormon Church was founded, the "ambiguity" in Mormon printed works concerning the Holy Spirit, Cannon was advocating that the Holy Spirit had a physical body - "a man in form and figure".

While not "pagan", that's certainly unorthodox. Again, when "God" had opportunity to "restore" His Church, it just amazes me that it took so long, given that God spoke directly to Mormon Prophets, for them to figure out who the members of "the Godhead" were.