We Want a Church Service, But We Don't Really Believe In God

[RBerman]

You really show such compassion. That must be your 'gift'.

Let them find comfort in this time of great stress and it will benefit your cause more than 'sticking to your guns.' Earlier this year, the woman who raised me passed. The church she was baptized in wouldn't officiate because she had ceased being a member years ago. She had been a believer, but what mattered at this particular junction was whether or not she was a member. So we turned to my wife's church and they know that I'm an atheist so they make me and my siblings sit down to see it will be a "right fit." They too were worried that we were just looking for a venue, when in fact we were trying to give her the Christian service that she would have wanted.

In this case, the deceased doesn't appear to be Christian. Which is a bit different. However, the individual who you deride as a nominal church goer and appears to be the one charged with making arrangements on behalf of the widow, is every bit entitled to the services of the church. This isn't about just the deceased, or about the widow, it is about everybody involved. Don't presume to tell me that you know the hearts of each individual. Shut-up and do your job and let your Holy Spirit do his or her or its part.

You seem to have pretty strong opinions about what the Holy Spirit wants, for someone who doesn't believe in him. No one is "entitled to the services of the church" except the people who are that particular church. The church is not a building. The church is not a business that invites all random people off the street to come in just for specific ceremonies that they have decided, for reasons of their own, that they'd like to have performed in a facility operated by a church.

Pilgrim can decide whether he thinks it would honor God and truly help this family to host a funeral for them in the church building even though they profess no interest in the actual church, the community of the saints. But this sense of entitlement that you evince simply shows that you don't understand what Christianity is.

[showmeproof]

You seem to have pretty strong opinions about what the Holy Spirit wants, for someone who doesn't believe in him. No one is "entitled to the services of the church" except the people who are that particular church. The church is not a building. The church is not a business that invites all random people off the street to come in just for specific ceremonies that they have decided, for reasons of their own, that they'd like to have performed in a facility operated by a church.

Pilgrim can decide whether he thinks it would honor God and truly help this family to host a funeral for them in the church building even though they profess no interest in the actual church, the community of the saints. But this sense of entitlement that you evince simply shows that you don't understand what Christianity is.

The person who had the influence in choosing this church is a church goer. They are part of the church. If your idea of church is so local and has no bearing on the larger picture of gods kingdom then you are not doing gods work...according to the bible anyhow.

[showmeproof]

If Christianity is true, there is nothing compassionate about temporarily pretending otherwise.

Again, there is at least one person, the same person who requested the service of the church, who is a believer. Would you turn down the request of a fellow believer in such a hard time? What consequence will you have in showing compassion to a fellow believer? They can't be held anymore accountable for the other peoples beliefs anymore than you can.

[RBerman]

The person who had the influence in choosing this church is a church goer. They are part of the church. If your idea of church is so local and has no bearing on the larger picture of gods kingdom then you are not doing gods work...according to the bible anyhow.

Pilgrim said the person who directed the family to Pilgrim's church was "nominally a churchgoer," and I'm not even sure what that means. As for the rest: You can argue that Pilgrim would be missing an opportunity to be gracious if he turned this family down in a request for a Christian funeral. But you can't argue that the family is actually entitled to anything, which is precisely what would make it gracious of Pilgrim to accede, rather than simply justice. Nor is Pilgrim obligated to officiate a funeral service devoid of religious content, or to offer the family the use of the church's facilities for their own religious purposes in opposition to those of Christ, who was not known for encouraging people to entrench in false beliefs.

[Carrikature]

Pilgrim said the person who directed the family to Pilgrim's church was "nominally a churchgoer," and I'm not even sure what that means. As for the rest: You can argue that Pilgrim would be missing an opportunity to be gracious if he turned this family down in a request for a Christian funeral. But you can't argue that the family is actually entitled to anything, which is precisely what would make it gracious of Pilgrim to accede, rather than simply justice. Nor is Pilgrim obligated to officiate a funeral service devoid of religious content, or to offer the family the use of the church's facilities for their own religious purposes in opposition to those of Christ, who was not known for encouraging people to entrench in false beliefs.

There's probably a happy medium. CP's idea of not turning them away, but insisting on a proper, traditional service would be my guess.

Showmeproof's story is actually completely different than Pilgrim's (whether or not you realize it, SMP). The deceased was a church goer, but not at that church. Should this really matter? I'd guess not, unless it's a significant denominational difference. Second, showmeproof, et.al., being atheist should have no impact on the funeral service performed for a believer. If the pastor was really worried about it, he could just ask those non-believing members to not start going on about the falsity of Christian beliefs during the service. Be quiet, and be respectful, which is expected at every funeral.

All that said, anyone going to a church for a funeral service should expect there to be a Christian funeral service. To pretend otherwise is silly. Many funeral homes have a small chapel without obviously religious overtones. Those would work better. For that matter, you can always have a grave-side service.

[Cow Poke]

You really show such compassion. That must be your 'gift'.

What a difference "tone of voice" makes. I first read your post believing you were being sincere with the above. As I continued to read, I had to assume you were being sarcastic.

Pilgrim DOES show compassion. He is NOT wanting to blow an opportunity to minister to people. I'm thinking you misunderstood why he wrote what he did.

[mossrose]

How difficult it is for a pastor who desires to fulfill his calling to convey the gospel to do a funeral for an unbeliever, especially when there are directions given to keep God out of it.

The same pastor did the funerals for my Dad and my brother, 2 years apart. He was just new to the church when Dad died, and he did a wonderful job with the service because even though he didn't know Dad well, he knew Dad was a believer, and the service reflected that.

The pastor didn't know my brother at all. My brother's wife called on the church to do the funeral because that is where my parents attended and where my brother attended as a child. The pastor did not meet with the rest of the family, only my brother's wife, and when we arrived for the funeral, it was like I was in the wrong place. The pastor was struggling, he was describing someone who was not the brother I knew, and I know the pastor was really wanting to speak the gospel, but that was not proscribed in his instructions from my sister-in-law.

Same church, same pastor, totally different feel and flavour. My Dad's funeral was an echo of the godly life he led and a message of triumph over death through the death and resurrection of his Saviour, Jesus Christ.

My brother's funeral was a sad, forlorn affair with no hope for those of us attending who so longed for him, while he lived, and his family to have that salvation that leads to eternal life.

I think far too many pastors abdicate their positions as teachers of the gospel to provide feel-good "death is the great equalizer" messages at funerals of people who come to the church only to be married or buried.

For the record, the pastor of the church I currently attend will not turn anyone away who asks to have a funeral in our church. He makes it very clear, however, that the message of salvation will be given, and if the people don't like that, they are free to go elsewhere.

[Cow Poke]

You really show such compassion. That must be your 'gift'.

As I have pointed out already, I THOUGHT, at first, this was a sincere comment. It really does fit, IMO, what I know of Pilgrim from what he has written.

However, it appears to have been a "slam", and showmeproof continues....

The person who had the influence in choosing this church is a church goer. They are part of the church. If your idea of church is so local and has no bearing on the larger picture of gods kingdom then you are not doing gods work...according to the bible anyhow.

From the OP, lets look at the facts as Pilgrim laid them out (bolding mine)....

So a family who had connections back in the '60's to the congregation i serve now wants to have a memorial service here at the church with me officiating. None of them have been associated with the church for more than 30 years having moved across the country to various places. One brother stayed in the area but never returned to church. He is the deceased.

The deceased is a man who "stayed in the area but never returned to church".

They asked to have the service here. I agreed before getting all the details. According to the Widow, who is nominally but not practicing Jewish, the deceased was closer to Buddhism than anything else.

The deceased, according to his widow, wasn't even into Christianity, apparently.

So she asks if I could use more ecumenical language. I say yes, but this is a church you're asking to hold the service in. Scripture must be read and reflected upon. It's a basic rule.

She doesn't want "Christian" language.

Ok, she says, but do we have to have the cross up there...

She doesn't want "Christian" symbols.

Yes I reply and explain why and how she might view it with less antagonism and more hope. She says that in her Buddhist friend's temple they have symbols from all religions and they're ok with it, why do we have a problem with it. Oye.

She seems more comfortable with the Buddhist religion.

I hope in all of this that this is a point of invitation to the gospel for them though I don't hold out much hope.

Pilgrim has tried MUCH MORE THAN I WOULD HAVE to compromise with this family, albeit he agreed before hearing all of the details. (That happens sometimes, and is an indication that we are wanting to do whatever we can in somebody's time of grief)

Why is it that people for whom religion is a distraction, a sort of vague past time like wine tasting or photography and is colored by pseudo intellectual musings seem to think their vague interest in "spirituality" is somehow more definitive or authoritative than that of those for whom it is a full time calling and field of professional study and work? I mean, would you go into your doctors office and tell him to lay off the thermometer or stethoscope? I don't think so.

Anyway, just venting.

This LAST PHRASE is the key --- Pilgrim has expressed a dilemma, is TRYING to minister to these people without compromising the GOSPEL, and is "venting".

I remember a funeral I did for a family of thugs (literally) who had a Momma who passed away. These guys were known crooks and low-lifes, but they said "Momma was a Christian and deserves a Christian funeral". I asked if I could see her Bible. One of them said, "I thought you might want that, so it's in the car... I'll go get it".

One look at her Bible made me commit to doing the funeral, with the condition that "I can use anything written in here, and it WILL be a Christian funeral". They agreed. (Her Bible was QUITE OBVIOUSLY used a LOT)

I sat in my office after they left, and began to look through her Bible. The margins were FULL of handwritten notes, mostly in the NT, underlining verses, circling words, "Brother John preached this 2/6/59" and stuff like that.

At the funeral service, I used the story of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15) -- it is the ONLY time I have ever used that story at a funeral. When I got to the part where it says "And when he came to himself", I paused for a minute, then asked the congregation, "Who is R JAY?". Her oldest son raised his hand and said, "that's me". I said, "here in the margin, beside the words "and he came to himself", your Momma wrote "this is my prayer for R JAY". He immediately began to weep, trying to hide his face behind a handkerchief, and I turned it back to the POSITIVE aspect that Momma loved Jesus, she really read her Bible, she was a PRAYER WARRIOR, and she would love to see her family in Heaven with her some day.

I have never heard anything from any of those folks about whether or not that really made an impression long term, but I know it had quite an impact at that moment, and I know -- because at the end of the graveside service, I handed "Momma's Bible" back to R Jay, and he couldn't look me in the eye -- that it HAS to be something he has thought about many times.

It really is TOUGH ministering to people at a funeral who Want a Church Service, But We Don't Really Believe In what we're preaching.

[Pilgrim]

Maybe, just maybe; she thought (wrongly, apparently) that a minister of a church would have some compassion and understanding.




Then, you shouldn't make promises you can't keep.

NORM

Maybe you should read the whole post before snarking? As it turned out, I do have compassion and I did do the service offering what compassion and comfort I could. And it turned out pretty well in the end.

[Cow Poke]

And it turned out pretty well in the end.

I was going to ask that, Pilgrim. Care to share, for those of us interested?

[Pilgrim]

To whit, I told them that in our tradition the most hard and fast rule was that scripture must be read and reflected upon in a service of worship and we considered the funeral or memorial service to be a service of worship. The widow and I sat down together with the Bible and looked through scriptures that were appropriate and she tried to recall verses that she remembered from other services. We ended up with Ecclesiastes 3 which is standard funeral stuff and 1 Cor. 13. "The greatest of these is love." I did a straight up exegesis on them both and linked them together during the sermon. It was short on the sort of resurrection language that I would normally have used at a funeral service but it was faithful to the text. I think it all worked out well in the end. The family found a moment of peace in our midst and some comfort and care. And we were able, by virtue of opening our particular sacred space to them, give them a glimpse of what we understand God's call on our lives to be. So the conversation begins between us.

It was interesting that people of other faiths came up to me after and said they were surprised that a Christian church could be so gracious and welcoming. Two folks even indicated they wanted to talk more about what were all about. I replied I was glad their expectations had been proven wrong and that I'd love to buy them a cup of coffee and talk about it. So all in all, God works things out. Amen?

[Cow Poke]

To whit, I told them that in our tradition the most hard and fast rule was that scripture must be read and reflected upon in a service of worship and we considered the funeral or memorial service to be a service of worship. The widow and I sat down together with the Bible and looked through scriptures that were appropriate and she tried to recall verses that she remembered from other services. We ended up with Ecclesiastes 3 which is standard funeral stuff and 1 Cor. 13. "The greatest of these is love." I did a straight up exegesis on them both and linked them together during the sermon. It was short on the sort of resurrection language that I would normally have used at a funeral service but it was faithful to the text. I think it all worked out well in the end. The family found a moment of peace in our midst and some comfort and care. And we were able, by virtue of opening our particular sacred space to them, give them a glimpse of what we understand God's call on our lives to be. So the conversation begins between us.

It was interesting that people of other faiths came up to me after and said they were surprised that a Christian church could be so gracious and welcoming. Two folks even indicated they wanted to talk more about what were all about. I replied I was glad their expectations had been proven wrong and that I'd love to buy them a cup of coffee and talk about it. So all in all, God works things out. Amen?

Amen! And, thanks for the update.

[NormATive]

Maybe you should read the whole post before snarking? As it turned out, I do have compassion and I did do the service offering what compassion and comfort I could. And it turned out pretty well in the end.

Then what are you whining about? Do you regret your compassion?

NORM

[Cow Poke]

Then what are you whining about? Do you regret your compassion?

NORM

Where do you get that he's whining?

He made a commitment, and followed through, and it all worked out.