Why Genesis 6 is not referring to the sons of Shem

[Sparko]

You're making the same argument Sparko made, but I expected much better from you. It's an argument from silence. They had no reason to give details about the specific act because it had nothing to do with the overall message. Peter was addressing the judgement of Noah's flood as precursor to the coming judgement, but he wasn't being specific about sexual immorality. Jude was addressing it as an example of how God spares no one who is disobedient (though he does reference the fact they went after "strange flesh"). The context is clear. You're denying it because it brings up issues of inerrancy.

I don’t think this thread is any different than the myriad of other threads about trivial subjects, such as the countless Calvinism vs. Arminianism debates. In fact, I think the exchanges in here have been somewhat mild compared to some of those debates. That’s what goes on here at Tweb and that's what makes a thread interesting.

Better an argument from silence than one from eisegesis.


By your logic we should believe Jesus was an alien because the bible never says he is. If you disagree then you are just a denialist!

[seanD]

Better an argument from silence than one from eisegesis.


By your logic we should believe Jesus was an alien because the bible never says he is. If you disagree then you are just a denialist!

All you ever do is engage in hyperbole and reductio ad absurdum. You never really contribute anything in the way of discussion other than that. I see you do it almost every thread you take part in. But it doesn't help your arguments much.

[Sparko]

All you ever do is engage in hyperbole and reductio ad absurdum. You never really contribute anything in the way of discussion other than that. I see you do it almost every thread you take part in. But it doesn't help your arguments much.

When you make absurd statements like accusing us of being denialists and arguing from silence, then it's up to me to show you how ridiculous they are so maybe you will think before saying such dumb things next time.

If the Peter and Jude don't say anything about angels and humans having sex, then you trying to use Peter and Jude to support your argument is the ridiculous one. And you have the audacity to try to claim that us pointing out that fact to you is an "argument from silence"??? really?

[seanD]

When you make absurd statements like accusing us of being denialists and arguing from silence, then it's up to me to show you how ridiculous they are so maybe you will think before saying such dumb things next time.

If the Peter and Jude don't say anything about angels and humans having sex, then you trying to use Peter and Jude to support your argument is the ridiculous one. And you have the audacity to try to claim that us pointing out that fact to you is an "argument from silence"??? really?

Okay (putting aside the fact that Jude references Enoch directly) then explain to me why you think Peter and Jude should have mentioned the specific sexual acts the angels did and the hybrids that came from that union in the context of the subject they were addressing. Since you're quick to refute the argument without even knowing what the passages are, you have to first find the passages I'm referring to. Of course, being the expert you are, I'm sure finding them won't be a problem.

[Sparko]

Okay (putting aside the fact that Jude references Enoch directly) then explain to me why you think Peter and Jude should have mentioned the specific sexual acts the angels did and the hybrids that came from that union in the context of the subject they were addressing. Since you're quick to refute the argument without even knowing what the passages are, you have to first find the passages I'm referring to. Of course, being the expert you are, I'm sure finding them won't be a problem.

So now your argument is that "why should they have mentioned it" and then concluding that it must be true. Sounds like you are the one trying to argue from silence now.

Why should they have mentioned that Jesus was an Alien from Mars? That means he must have been!

[seanD]

So now your argument is that "why should they have mentioned it" and then concluding that it must be true. Sounds like you are the one trying to argue from silence now.

Why should they have mentioned that Jesus was an Alien from Mars? That means he must have been!

No. Peter described an angelic fall and judgement in correlation with Noah's flood that just happens to be similar to an angelic fall and judgement in correlation with Noah's flood that is described in the Enoch source. You're denying that there is any connection and calling it a coincidence. Jude not only mentions an angelic fall and judgement because, like those of Sodom and Gomorrah, they went after "strange flesh," but he actually references the Enoch source directly, yet you're still denying it's the same angelic fall and calling it a coincidence. And your argument is that, since they didn't go into extended detail about what the angels did, it has to be a different account. Does that sound like a rational argument to you?

[Sparko]

Does that sound like a rational argument to you?

no.

[Phat8594]

That's even worse for the denialist than denying they were referencing Enoch at all. If they were referencing Enoch, then they obviously believed the story about the fall and judgement of the angels. Whether the whole of Enoch is true or not is irrelevant at that point. I'm not arguing in favor of the whole book of Enoch or its authenticity. That's not what this thread is about.

The problem is that similarities, or even quotes from a source does not entail that the Peter or Jude believed the whole story of Enoch to be true.

Perhaps since Paul referenced a saying from a Cretan prophet..perhaps it means that Paul believed everything that prophet said?


The issue is this: you are looking at a piece of evidence and jumping to conclusions. From the outside, it looks like you are doing this because it supports what you believe...but perhaps you have another reason for doing so.

However, when one actually looks at the evidence that you have provided, it doesn't provide good insight to the angle-hybrid theory one way or the other.

[Phat8594]

You're denying that there is any connection and calling it a coincidence. Jude not only mentions an angelic fall and judgement because, like those of Sodom and Gomorrah, they went after "strange flesh," but he actually references the Enoch source directly, yet you're still denying it's the same angelic fall and calling it a coincidence. And your argument is that, since they didn't go into extended detail about what the angels did, it has to be a different account.

I think the argument is similar to the idea that "correlation does not prove causation". Those who take a correlation and run with it to mean causation committ a logical error.

In other words, an author in the NT can reference extra-biblical material without ascribing to the greater story / 'truth' / whole account in that extra-biblical material.

Perhaps you wouldn't mind showing the quotes from 2 Peter and Jude, cross-referencing them with the book of enoch, and showing how it proves that Peter and Jude believed the greater story in the book of enoch...?

You're denying that there is any connection and calling it a coincidence.

I don't think anybody is denying that there is possibly a connection and calling it a coincidence. What I think is clear is that we shouldn't jump to conclusions based on such little data.

See, the issue is that you are saying that there isn't only a connection...but you are claiming to know what exactly that connection is, as well as the nature of that connection (you claim that Jude and Peter referenced enoch because they ascribe to the greater story in enoch)

[Cerebrum123]

I think the argument is similar to the idea that "correlation does not prove causation". Those who take a correlation and run with it to mean causation committ a logical error.

In other words, an author in the NT can reference extra-biblical material without ascribing to the greater story / 'truth' / whole account in that extra-biblical material.

Perhaps you wouldn't mind showing the quotes from 2 Peter and Jude, cross-referencing them with the book of enoch, and showing how it proves that Peter and Jude believed the greater story in the book of enoch...?



I don't think anybody is denying that there is possibly a connection and calling it a coincidence. What I think is clear is that we shouldn't jump to conclusions based on such little data.

See, the issue is that you are saying that there isn't only a connection...but you are claiming to know what exactly that connection is, as well as the nature of that connection (you claim that Jude and Peter referenced enoch because they ascribe to the greater story in enoch)

I think it's not the "greater story in Enoch", but rather a very specific part of that story, namely that angels interbred with humans. IMO the Biblical text supports the angel human hybrid position. There are things like the fact that the Septuagint translated Nephilim as "gigantes" which was later changed to "giants", but actually means Titans. The Titans were defeated by Zeus and the other gods, and were sentenced to Tartarus, which is what the original text in 2 Peter is often translated as hell. So you have not only Biblical textual support, but you have some parallels in other ANE texts.

[Chrawnus]

Instead of arguing whether or not Jude and Peter believed in the "greater story of Enoch" why don't we discuss what Jude means when he writes in Jude 1:6 that the angels in question "since they in the same way as these [Sodom and Gomorrah] indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh" (NASB), or as the ESV puts it: "just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire"

It would seem that if translations such as the ESV are correct (I.e translations that seem to give support for the notion that the sin the angels were guilty of were sexual immorality of some sort), then what Jude is claiming is that the angels who are kept in "eternal chains" are in chains because they, like Sodom and Gomorrah, indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire (or more literally, went after strange flesh). If that is indeed what Jude is claiming, then the theory of angels having sex with women isn't really that far-fetched.

[RBerman]

You're making the same argument Sparko made, but I expected much better from you. It's an argument from silence. They had no reason to give details about the specific act because it had nothing to do with the overall message. Peter was addressing the judgement of Noah's flood as precursor to the coming judgement, but he wasn't being specific about any particular immoral acts. Jude was addressing it as an example of how God spares no one who is disobedient (though he does reference the fact they went after "strange flesh"). The context is clear. You're denying it because it brings up issues of inerrancy.

You seem to have 'argument from silence' backward. An argument from silence is normally a fallacy, because you prove a position positively, not just by showing a lack of evidence for some particular alternative position. Occasionally, it's possible to positively prove that there ought to have been something besides silence in a particular situation, so that the silence itself becomes positive proof. You have not offered positive proof of that nature, so silence remains simply inconclusive silence which does not support any particular view, whether your or mine.

I don’t think this thread is any different than the myriad of other threads about trivial subjects, such as the countless Calvinism vs. Arminianism debates. In fact, I think the exchanges in here have been somewhat mild compared to some of those debates. That’s what goes on here at Tweb and that's what makes a thread interesting.

The Calvinist/Arminian debates concern complex philosophical conundra which many Scriptures touch directly and indirectly. This thread, on the other hand, is about a matter of historical fact discussed specifically in one 4-verse passage, extremely short on detail.

[Adrift]

Just for clarity's sake, here are the passages in question:

Genesis 6:1-8

When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

1 Enoch 7:1-15

It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful. And when the angels, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children.

Then their leader Samyaza said to them; I fear that you may perhaps be indisposed to the performance of this enterprise; And that I alone shall suffer for so grievous a crime.

But they answered him and said; We all swear; And bind ourselves by mutual execrations, that we will not change our intention, but execute our projected undertaking.

Then they swore all together, and all bound themselves by mutual execrations. Their whole number was two hundred, who descended upon Ardis, which is the top of mount Armon. That mountain therefore was called Armon, because they had sworn upon it, and bound themselves by mutual execrations.

These are the names of their chiefs: Samyaza, who was their leader, Urakabarameel, Akibeel, Tamiel, Ramuel, Danel, Azkeel, Saraknyal, Asael, Armers, Batraal, Anane, Zavebe, Samsaveel, Ertael, Turel, Yomyael, Arazyal. These were the prefects of the two hundred angels, and the remainder were all with them.

Then they took wives, each choosing for himself; whom they began to approach, and with whom they cohabited; teaching them sorcery, incantations, and the dividing of roots and trees.

And the women conceiving brought forth giants, Whose stature was each three hundred cubits. These devoured all which the labor of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them; When they turned themselves against men, in order to devour them; And began to injure birds, beasts, reptiles, and fishes, to eat their flesh one after another, and to drink their blood.

Then the earth reproved the unrighteous.

© source where applicable

Enoch 9:1

Then Michael and Gabriel, Raphael, Suryal, and Uriel, looked down from heaven, and saw the quantity of blood which was shed on earth, and all the iniquity which was done upon it, and said one to another, It is the voice of their cries; The earth deprived of her children has cried even to the gate of heaven.

And now to you, O you holy one of heaven, the souls of men complain, saying, Obtain Justice for us with the Most High. Then they said to their Lord, the King, You are Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings. The throne of your glory is for ever and ever, and for ever and ever is your name sanctified and glorified. You are blessed and glorified. You have made all things; you possess power over all things; and all things are open and manifest before you. You behold all things, and nothing can be concealed from you.

You have seen what Azazyel has done, how he has taught every species of iniquity upon earth, and has disclosed to the world all the secret things which are done in the heavens. Samyaza also has taught sorcery, to whom you have given authority over those who are associated with him. They have gone together to the daughters of men; have lain with them; have become polluted; And have discovered crimes to them. The women likewise have brought forth giants. Thus has the whole earth been filled with blood and with iniquity. And now behold the souls of those who are dead, cry out. And complain even to the gate of heaven. Their groaning ascends; nor can they escape from the unrighteousness which is committed on earth. You know all things, before they exist. You know these things, and what has been done by them; yet you do not speak to us. What on account of these things ought we to do to them?

© source where applicable

Enoch 10:1-16:5

Then the Most High, the Great and Holy One spoke, And sent Arsayalalyur to the son of Lamech, Saying, Say to him in my name, Conceal yourself. Then explain to him the consummation which is about to take place; for all the earth shall perish; the waters of a deluge shall come over the whole earth, and all things which are in it shall be destroyed. And now teach him how he may escape, and how his seed may remain in all the earth.

Again the Lord said to Raphael, Bind Azazyel hand and foot; cast him into darkness; and opening the desert which is in Dudael, cast him in there. Throw upon him hurled and pointed stones, covering him with darkness; There shall he remain for ever; cover his face, that he may not see the light. And in the great day of judgment let him be cast into the fire. Restore the earth, which the angels have corrupted; and announce life to it, that I may revive it.

All the sons of men shall not perish in consequence of every secret, by which the Watchers have destroyed, and which they have taught, their offspring. All the earth has been corrupted by the effects of the teaching of Azazyel. To him therefore ascribe the whole crime.

To Gabriel also the Lord said, Go to the biters, to the reprobates, to the children of fornication; and destroy the children of fornication, the offspring of the Watchers, from among men; bring them forth, and excite them one against another. Let them perish by mutual slaughter; for length of days shall not be theirs. They shall all entreat you, but their fathers shall not obtain their wishes respecting them; for they shall hope for eternal life, and that they may live, each of them, five hundred years.

To Michael likewise the Lord said, Go and announce his crime to Samyaza, and to the others who are with him, who have been associated with women, that they might be polluted with all their impurity. And when all their sons shall be slain, when they shall see the perdition of their beloved, bind them for seventy generations underneath the earth, even to the day of judgment, and of consummation, until the judgment, the effect of which will last for ever, be completed. Then shall they be taken away into the lowest depths of the fire in torments; and in confinement shall they be shut up for ever.

Immediately after this shall he, together with them, burn and perish; they shall be bound until the consummation of many generations. Destroy all the souls addicted to dalliance, and the offspring of the Watchers, for they have tyrannized over mankind. Let every oppressor perish from the face of the earth; Let every evil work be destroyed; The plant of righteousness and of rectitude appear, and its produce become a blessing. Righteousness and rectitude shall be for ever planted with delight.

© source where applicable

Enoch 12:1-7

Before all these things Enoch was concealed; nor did any one of the sons of men know where he was concealed, where he had been, and what had happened. He was wholly engaged with the holy ones, and with the Watchers in his days. Enoch, was blessing the great Lord and King of peace.

And behold the Watchers called me Enoch the scribe.

Then the Lord said to me: Enoch, scribe of righteousness, go tell the Watchers of heaven, who have deserted the lofty sky, and their holy everlasting station, who have been polluted with women. And have done as the sons of men do, by taking to themselves wives, and who have been greatly corrupted on the earth; That on the earth they shall never obtain peace and remission of sin. For they shall not rejoice in their offspring; they shall behold the slaughter of their beloved; shall lament for the destruction of their sons; and shall petition for ever; but shall not obtain mercy and peace.

© source where applicable

Enoch 14:24-16:5

And He raised me up, making me draw near even to the entrance. My eye was directed to the ground.

Then addressing me, He spoke and said, Hear, neither be afraid, O righteous Enoch, you scribe of righteousness: approach hither, and hear my voice. Go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent you to pray for them, You ought to pray for men, and not men for you.

Wherefore have you forsaken the lofty and holy heaven, which endures for ever, and have lain with women; have defile yourselves with the daughters of men; have taken to yourselves wives; have acted like the sons of the earth, and have begotten an impious offspring?

You being spiritual, holy, and possessing a life which is eternal, have polluted yourselves with women; have begotten in carnal blood; have lusted in the blood of men; and have done as those who are flesh and blood do. These however die and perish. Therefore have I given to them wives, that they might cohabit with them; that sons might be born of them; and that this might be transacted upon earth. But you from the beginning were made spiritual, possessing a life which is eternal, and not subject to death for ever. Therefore I made not wives for you, because, being spiritual, your dwelling is in heaven.

Now the giants, who have been born of spirit and of flesh, shall be called upon earth evil spirits, and on earth shall be their habitation. Evil spirits shall proceed from their flesh, because they were created from above; from the holy Watchers was their beginning and primary foundation. Evil spirits shall they be upon earth, and the spirits of the wicked shall they be called. The habitation of the spirits of heaven shall be in heaven; but upon earth shall be the habitation of terrestrial spirits, who are born on earth. The spirits of the giants shall be like clouds, which shall oppress, corrupt, fall, content, and bruise upon earth. They shall cause lamentation. No food shall they eat; and they shall be thirsty; they shall be concealed, and shall not rise up against the sons of men, and against women; for they come forth during the days of slaughter and destruction.

And as to the death of the giants, wheresoever their spirits depart from their bodies, let their flesh, that which is perishable, be without judgment. Thus shall they perish, until the day of the great consummation of the great world. A destruction shall take place of the Watchers and the impious.

And now to the Watchers, who have sent you to pray for them, who in the beginning were in heaven, Say, In heaven have you been; secret things, however, have not been manifested to you; yet have you known a reprobated mystery. And this you have related to women in the hardness of your heart, and by that mystery have women and mankind multiplied evils upon the earth. Say to them, Never therefore shall you obtain peace.

© source where applicable

Enoch 68:39-41

He sat upon the throne of his glory; and the principal part of the judgment was assigned to him, the Son of man. Sinners shall disappear and perish from the face of the earth, while those who seduced them shall be bound with chains for ever. According to their ranks of corruption shall they be imprisoned, and all their works shall disappear from the face of the earth; nor thenceforward shall there be any to corrupt; for the Son of man has been seen, sitting on the throne of his glory. Everything wicked shall disappear, and depart from before his face; and the word of the Son of man shall become powerful in the presence of the Lord of spirits.

© source where applicable

1 Peter 3:18-22

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

2 Peter 2:4-10

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority...

Jude 1:6-7

And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Edited to add most of the relevant passages on the Watchers in Enoch.

[RBerman]

Jude 3-16, ESV

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.
12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted —twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

As we see, the bulk of Jude is given to a description of the problems being caused in a church by some bad apples. They are compared to the rebellious Israelites that God judged in the wilderness (v5), to the rebellious angels that God judged (v6), to sexually immoral Soddom and Gommorah which God judged (v7-8), to Cain (v11), to Balaam (v11), to rebels against Moses (v11), and to God's enemies in the First Book of Enoch (v14-16). Their specific sins include grumbling, nitpicking, boasting, and flattery (v16).

The common thread connecting all these examples is not sexual perversion, but sin and rebellion in a more general sense. The "in a similar way" connecting the angels of verse 6 with Sodom in Gomorrah in verse 7 is not sexuality, but sin inevitably leading to judgment, which is the theme of the passage.

[seanD]

Instead of arguing whether or not Jude and Peter believed in the "greater story of Enoch" why don't we discuss what Jude means when he writes in Jude 1:6 that the angels in question "since they in the same way as these [Sodom and Gomorrah] indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh" (NASB), or as the ESV puts it: "just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire"

It would seem that if translations such as the ESV are correct (I.e translations that seem to give support for the notion that the sin the angels were guilty of were sexual immorality of some sort), then what Jude is claiming is that the angels who are kept in "eternal chains" are in chains because they, like Sodom and Gomorrah, indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire (or more literally, went after strange flesh). If that is indeed what Jude is claiming, then the theory of angels having sex with women isn't really that far-fetched.

I don't think you even need the reference to the "flesh violation" part in Jude for it to be an extraordinary coincidence that Peter and Jude are describing a different angelic fall and judgement than the tradition similarly found in Enoch. The denial of something so obvious is really strange to me. I notice that RB also has a problem accepting that the warring princes described in Daniel are demons (we've had this discussion in the past), and that really threw me for a loop that he could actually deny something that was pretty obvious; that Michael and Gabriel weren't fighting a human prince. So I'm wondering if there's some conflict of doctrine here. I could imagine there are a whole lot of Christians that are uncomfortable with the idea that sovereign supernatural entities could appear on earth against God’s volition and distort his creation that way, and a way that actually forced God to take the most extreme action to stop it. Could there be a conflict with Calvinism, for example?