Page 3 of 10 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 91

Thread: Commentary Thread: Is the Bible Inspired by God

  1. #21
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Faith
    Muslim
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    167
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    0
    The answer to Sparko's question "uh. I thought the Muslims accepted the Old Testament as scripture? If so, didn't Hakeem just call his own religion liars for doing so?" is that the Quran commands muslims to believe in the Torah of Moses, the Gospel of Jesus and the Psalms of David. However, Christian Bibles Scholars agree that the Torah we have in the Bible today was not written by Moses as illustrated by Deuteronomy 34 tells us how old was Moses when he died (verse 7) and where he was buried (verses 5 & 6). Such Torah cannot be of Moses. This is only one example.

    Cerebrum123 saying "The Koran commands them to accept it as the inspired words of Allah, but generally Muslims today think it's been "corrupted"" needs to be clarified that Muslims think certain parts are not from God according to the Bible. For example, a flat out contradiction is that according to 2 Kings 8:27 says "Ahaziah was 22 when he began to reign" while 2 Chronicles 22:2 says "Ahaziah was 42 when he began to reign"

  2. #22
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    9,074
    Amen (Given)
    16958
    Amen (Received)
    3351
    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    The answer to Sparko's question "uh. I thought the Muslims accepted the Old Testament as scripture? If so, didn't Hakeem just call his own religion liars for doing so?" is that the Quran commands muslims to believe in the Torah of Moses, the Gospel of Jesus and the Psalms of David. However, Christian Bibles Scholars agree that the Torah we have in the Bible today was not written by Moses as illustrated by Deuteronomy 34 tells us how old was Moses when he died (verse 7) and where he was buried (verses 5 & 6). Such Torah cannot be of Moses. This is only one example.

    Cerebrum123 saying "The Koran commands them to accept it as the inspired words of Allah, but generally Muslims today think it's been "corrupted"" needs to be clarified that Muslims think certain parts are not from God according to the Bible. For example, a flat out contradiction is that according to 2 Kings 8:27 says "Ahaziah was 22 when he began to reign" while 2 Chronicles 22:2 says "Ahaziah was 42 when he began to reign"
    Yeah, you just sank the Quran's own credibility if you insist on such extreme levels of textual preservation. Also, the works Mohammed himself would have been dealing with would have had the same verses, with the same copyist errors. The Quran still confirmed the Old Testament, and New Testament during Mohammed's time was the "word of Allah", and the Quran says that the words of Allah can't be changed. So even if the Bible was false, the Quran is false since it claims that the Torah and Injil are the inspired, preserved, and authoritative, words of Allah.

  3. #23
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Faith
    Muslim
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    167
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    0
    Cerebrum123 claiming "The Quran still confirmed the Old Testament, and New Testament during Mohammed's time was the "word of Allah"" is not found in the Quran and I challenge you to quote one verse from the Quran to shown the Quran confirms the Old Testament and the New Testament.

    Which old testament are you referring to please? The Protestant Old Testament has 39 books while the Catholic Old Testament has 46 books in them. There is corruption regardless of the reason of the corruption.

    This debate is not about the preservation of the Bible. It is rather about if the Bible inspired by God

  4. #24
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Faith
    Muslim
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    167
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    0
    Another flat out contradiction is that According to Exodus 24:9-10, Moses and others SAW ; however, 1 Timothy 6:16 says "whom no man has seen God NOR CAN see him"

    Exodus 24:9-11 say "Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they SAW the God of Israel. . . . They SAW God, and did eat and drink."

    Please notice this contradiction is a doctrinal contradiction.
    Last edited by Same Hakeem; 02-06-2018 at 09:53 PM.

  5. #25
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    9,074
    Amen (Given)
    16958
    Amen (Received)
    3351
    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Cerebrum123 claiming "The Quran still confirmed the Old Testament, and New Testament during Mohammed's time was the "word of Allah"" is not found in the Quran and I challenge you to quote one verse from the Quran to shown the Quran confirms the Old Testament and the New Testament.

    Which old testament are you referring to please? The Protestant Old Testament has 39 books while the Catholic Old Testament has 46 books in them. There is corruption regardless of the reason of the corruption.

    This debate is not about the preservation of the Bible. It is rather about if the Bible inspired by God
    Given Mohammed was supposed to be talking about the Torah, then the Jewish one. You do know what apocrypha are, right? Those are the books that Protestants and Catholics/eastern Orthodox disagree about.

    And when there came to them an Apostle from Allah verifying that which they have, a party of those who were given the Book threw the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they knew nothing. S. 2:101 Shakir

    He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel. S. 3:3 Khalifa

    And when God took compact with the Prophets: 'That I have given you of Book and Wisdom; then there shall come to you a Messenger confirming what IS with you -- you shall believe in him and you shall help him; do you agree?' He said. 'And do you take My load on you on that condition?' They said, 'We do agree.' God said, 'Bear witness so, and I shall be with you among the witnesses.' S. 3:81

    Just a small sample. A fuller treatment can be read here on TWeb.

    You obviously haven't studied the textual evidence for the Quran, otherwise you would know it is far worse than the textual evidence we have of the Gospels. Besides, textual variations reflect badly on your view of inspiration either way. The Quran claims that the Torah and Injil are the "words of Allah", but also says that the words of Allah can't be changed. Yet we find things like numerical discrepancies in the Bible. If, however, what we know of today to be the Gospels, and the Jewish works of the Pentateuch, Psalms, and the Prophets are not "the Torah and Injil" in the Quran, then we still have a problem, as the earliest documents, including those during Mohammed's time, are in no substantive way different.

    If a mere numerical discrepancy is a sign of "corruption" in a significant sense, then missing verses, and chapters is a far worse sign.

    Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif—Many (of the passages) of the Qur’an that were sent down were known by those who died on the day of Yamama . . . but they were not known (by those who) survived them, nor were they written down, nor had Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman (by that time) collected the Qur’an, nor were they found with even one (person) after them.

    Jami at-Tirmidhi 3104—“O you Muslim people! Avoid copying the Mushaf and recitation of this man. By Allah! When I accepted Islam he was but in the loins of a disbelieving man”—meaning Zaid bin Thabit—and it was regarding this that Abdullah bin Mas’ud said: “O people of Al-Iraq! Keep the Musahif that are with you, and conceal them.”

    Sahih al-Bukhari 5005—Umar said, “Ubayy was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur’an), yet we leave some of what he recites.” Ubayy says, “I have taken it from the mouth of Allah’s Messenger and will not leave it for anything whatever.”

    Sahih Muslim 2286—Abu Musa al-Ash’ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur’an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara’at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: “If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust.” And we used to recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it . . .

    Sunan ibn Majah 1944—It was narrated that Aishah said: “The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”

    As far as textual preservation, the Quran hasn't a leg to stand on. Especially since Uthman went and burnt all of the contrary versions of the Quran that existed in his time. If the differences he was disposing of were merely dialectic differences, then there would have been no need to burn the available evidence. Major differences in chapter and verse numbers would be significant enough to cause division in the Muslim community however. Looking at the available history, that's exactly what happened. The version used today by many Muslims is, as I already quoted, considered deceptive by the man who Mohammed viewed as the best of reciters of the Quran. That on its own ought to send up red flags to anyone honestly looking at the evidence.

  6. #26
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    9,074
    Amen (Given)
    16958
    Amen (Received)
    3351
    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Another flat out contradiction is that According to Exodus 24:9-10, Moses and others SAW ; however, 1 Timothy 6:16 says "whom no man has seen God NOR CAN see him"

    Exodus 24:9-11 say "Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they SAW the God of Israel. . . . They SAW God, and did eat and drink."

    Please notice this contradiction is a doctrinal contradiction.
    This opens up the whole can of worms regarding the Trinity, theodicy, and more. You haven't even tried to understand what we've already given you, so I'm not even going to attempt to go into even deeper subjects with you.

  7. #27
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Faith
    Muslim
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    167
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    This opens up the whole can of worms regarding the Trinity, theodicy, and more. You haven't even tried to understand what we've already given you, so I'm not even going to attempt to go into even deeper subjects with you.
    OF course you cannot go deeper with these flat out contradictions.

  8. #28
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    9,074
    Amen (Given)
    16958
    Amen (Received)
    3351
    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    OF course you cannot go deeper with these flat out contradictions.

  9. #29
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Faith
    Muslim
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    167
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    0
    Thanks Cerebrum123 for your comments.

    I agree the Quran confirms the scriptures before the arrival of prophet Mohammed that such scriptures are inspired by God.as revealed by God. So we have to see if the Bible (whether Protestant or Catholic Bible) we have today is inspired by God. One way to know if the Bible is inspired by God is that contradictions should not be in the Bible as per Proverbs 30:5 "Every word of God is flawless".

    One of the flat out contradictions is as follows;

    Exodus 24:11 tells "They SAW God" whereas 1 Timothy 6:16 says "who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom NO ONE HAS SEEN or CAN SEE."

    Another flat out contradiction is as follows;

    2 Kings 8:26 says "Ahaziah was 22 years old when he began to rule" whereas "Ahaziah was 42 years old when he began to rule" according to 2 Chronicles 22:2.

    I debated the inspiration of the Bible so I am not going to address the preservation of the Bible.
    Last edited by Same Hakeem; 02-07-2018 at 03:06 PM.

  10. #30
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    330
    Amen (Given)
    45
    Amen (Received)
    76
    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post

    One of the flat out contradictions is as follows;

    Another flat out contradiction is as follows;

    2 Kings 8:26 says "Ahaziah was 22 years old when he began to rule" whereas "Ahaziah was 42 years old when he began to rule" according to 2 Chronicles 22:2.
    5. Was Ahaziah 22 (2 Kings 8:26) or 42 (2 Chronicles 22:2) when he began to rule over Jerusalem?

    (Category: copyist error)

    Because we are dealing with accounts which were written thousands of years ago, we would not expect to have the originals in our possession today, as they would have disintegrated long ago. We are therefore dependent on the copies taken from copies of those originals, which were in turn continually copied out over a period of centuries. Those who did the copying were prone to making two types of scribal errors. One concerned the spelling of proper names, and the other had to do with numbers.

    The two examples of numerical discrepancy here have to do with a decade in the number given. Ahaziah is said to have been 22 in 2 Kings 8:26; while in 2 Chronicles 22:2 Ahaziah is said to have been 42. Fortunately there is enough additional information in the Biblical text to show that the correct number is 22. Earlier in 2 Kings 8:17 the author mentions that Ahaziah’s father Joram ben Ahab was 32 when he became King, and he died eight years later, at the age of 40. Therefore Ahaziah could not have been 42 at the time of his father’s death at age 40! Such scribal errors do not change Jewish or Christian beliefs in the least. In such a case, another portion of scripture often corrects the mistake (2 Kings 8:26 in this instance). We must also remember that the scribes who were responsible for the copies were meticulously honest in handling Biblical texts. They delivered them as they received them, without changing even obvious mistakes, which are few indeed. (101 Bible contradictions cleared up)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •