The death of the caliphate

[Roy]

You think that Iraq would somehow have agreed to US forces being in-country indefinitely? Any agreement would need to have had a deadline, as that one did. Obama's State Department didn't even try to negotiate an extension.

No, I don't think that. I didn't give any indication that I thought that. There is in fact no relationship whatsoever between my post and my opinion on that matter or indeed my opinion on any matter at all.

I do think that y'all are incapable of dealing with basic facts without assuming some partisan approval. At this point I suspect that if I said GWB was a Cancer you'd all start yelling that Clinton and Obama were worse because of their Leonine laziness.

[Roy]

And if you're going to accuse me of something, at least SPELL IT CORRECTLY!!!!

I did - not my fault you colonials drop more letters than Jess on catnip.

[Cow Poke]

No, I don't think that. I didn't give any indication that I thought that. There is in fact no relationship whatsoever between my post and my opinion on that matter or indeed my opinion on any matter at all.

I do think that y'all are incapable of dealing with basic facts without putting some partisan spin on them. At this point I suspect that if I said GWB was a Cancer you'd all start yelling that Clinton and Obama were worse because of their Leonine laziness.

I'm getting to the point where I'm beginning to detest all politicians equally.

[Cow Poke]

I did - not my fault you colonials drop more letters than Jess on catnip.

Ah, my apologies. I forget that I tend to colour you foreigners with the same crayon as our local loonies.


Seriously, though - point taken.

[Starlight]

I forgot --- Obama - Chosen One --- GWB - Spawn of Satan.

Nah, more like GWB - candidate for the label of one of America's worst 10 presidents, and Obama - candidate for the label of one of America's 10 best presidents.

Of course, I think both should stand trial for war crimes. GWB should have a mandatory minimum of life in prison, with execution being on the table, for his crimes, especially given they include the introduction of a torture program. I think 10 to 20 years in prison would be reasonable for Obama. But of course the International Criminal Court should decide that.

[Cow Poke]

Nah, more like GWB - candidate for the label of one of America's worst 10 presidents, and Obama - candidate for the label of one of America's 10 best presidents.

you a funny funny guy!!!!

[Sparko]

Obama... Obama... Obama...

GWB signed the order to withdraw US troops, and bears some responsibility for the consequences.

Blaming Obama and only Obama is partisanship carried to insanity.

After listening to 8 going on 9 years of Bush being blamed for everything?

Obama could have left enough troops behind to prevent this mess. He chose not to and made a big deal of it. It was a pretty big controversy at the time.

[Roy]

Nah, more like GWB - candidate for the label of one of America's worst 10 presidents, and Obama - candidate for the label of one of America's 10 best presidents.

No disagreement re GWB, but I doubt Obama would be in the top 10. I think he'd be overshadowed by at least Kennedy, Roosevelt, Eisenhower, Lincoln, Washington, Truman, the other Roosevelt, Johnson, Wilson and Cleveland.

[Roy]

After listening to 8 going on 9 years of Bush being blamed for everything?

You think others' biases excuse your own?

[Sparko]

You think others' biases excuse your own?

Ha.

Do some research on the Obama withdrawal controversy. He speeded up Bush's plan and promised to get the troops out by Christmas. He also chose NOT to keep 10,000 troops there as "advisors" which could have prevented a lot of what is happening now. It was a big controversy at the time. So no, I don't blame Bush. I blame Obama. Bush wanted to make sure the local governments were firmly established through democracy and provide protection for them as they withdrew. Obama threw all that into the wind and just started pulling troops out as fast as he could and to hell with the local government.

[Starlight]

No disagreement re GWB, but I doubt Obama would be in the top 10. I think he'd be overshadowed by at least Kennedy, Roosevelt, Eisenhower, Lincoln, Washington, Truman, the other Roosevelt, Johnson, Wilson and Cleveland.

Wikipedia has a helpful table collating all sorts of different polls of presidential historians etc as to the rankings of the US presidents. On an average of the surveys, GWB ranks as the 10th worst and Obama as the 15th best (although notably he ranked #12 in the only survey conducted after the end of his term in office rather than during it, as he was quite active with executive orders and international relations in his final year in office)... hence my deliberate phrasing of Obama being a "candidate for the label of" one of America's top 10 presidents. All the presidents you list are indeed higher than Obama on the average of expert opinions, except Cleveland who averages 18th best.

you a funny funny guy!!!!

Just repeating expert opinion. Sorry if you find reality hilarious.

[Starlight]

After listening to 8 going on 9 years of Bush being blamed for everything?

He kind of started two wars that he paid for on the credit card, one of which was totally unnecessary and his administration lied about that one a lot. He took the country into massive debt. The economy collapsed in his final year in office. He introduced a literal torture program and his administration lied about that a lot. I've shown you polling data of international opinion of the US under GWB, he really tanked America's reputation internationally.

By any reasonable objective measure, can you name anything good he did as president?

This is not the normal "democrats whine about Republican presidents". GWB was actually an unusually awful president, according to international observers, according to US presidential historians, according to any reasonably objective look at the record of what he actually did.

I think Eisenhower was a very very good president. I think Lincoln was a great president. I think Bush Snr was reasonably good. I'm not just against all Republican presidents. GWB was unusually atrocious. Trump is unusually atrocious.

[Sea of red]

Ha.

Do some research on the Obama withdrawal controversy. He speeded up Bush's plan and promised to get the troops out by Christmas. He also chose NOT to keep 10,000 troops there as "advisors" which could have prevented a lot of what is happening now. It was a big controversy at the time. So no, I don't blame Bush. I blame Obama. Bush wanted to make sure the local governments were firmly established through democracy and provide protection for them as they withdrew. Obama threw all that into the wind and just started pulling troops out as fast as he could and to hell with the local government.

News flash: nobody cares about Iraq or it's insane people.

We shed a lot of blood for those bastards. A lot of American soldiers tried to show them the 21 century, provided for them all the tools they would need, and our men/women fought the tyrants oppressing them. And how did they repay us? By shooting at us, setting of IED's, and dragging the corpses of US soldiers they killed through the street.

This is how Iraq repaid us.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=495_1178038108 <--- graphic.

[Terraceth]

Arguing about whether Obama or Bush is to blame for ISIS is stupid; they're both to blame. The only question is which one shoulders more. Personally, I'd say Bush. Obama bungled handling Iraq, but he was stuck with the task of cleaning up the mess Bush left. He could've definitely done a better job with that, but the fact remains that the whole reason there was a mess for Obama to bungle in the first place was that Bush made the mess to begin with by making such an unnecessary invasion.

[lilpixieofterror]

wow indeed. None of that refutes the fact that GWB initiated the withdrawal of US troops from Iraq. Quit channelling LPOT.

Maybe he should channel you instead. You know, the hypocrite that wants others to admit to their mistakes while running away from his own mistakes instead of admitting to his own mistakes.