Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

[Leonhard]

1) Compared to how often you request prayer from the dead, how often do you request prayer from the living? Is it 50/50, or 10/90, or what?

For many reasons I ask saints to pray for me more often than with living people.

If I'm reading you right the preference from your point of view is that we ask only other 'living saints', or mostly. Would you be okay with someone asking St Paul to pray for him?

Whenever I'm in a prayer group, or I talk to devout friends, we reassure each other that we'll be praying and we tell about each others the intentions. So in that sense I'm not sure how much more frequently I can ask for prayer from other Christians, without making it an intrusive business.

Prayers to the saints can happen anywhere and at any time, so for that reason alone I end up praying to them more often. And there's so many of them to address, and on earth there's only so many social engagements you get into. And I can reflect on their lives. Take Saint Maria Goretti who died a martyr-virgin, calling out to her attacker not to do it because it would be a sin against God and she didn't want him to go to Hell, she's often call to pray for the sake of chastity.

However since one is not done to the exclusion of the other, I don't see what problem you could have even if 99% of my requests for prayer were to the saints.

2) Compared to both of those, how often do you speak directly to God?

That's a good question.

I think I'll try to give an short account of the prayer life I've been having, then you can judge for yourself. This is just a dry content listing, and sometimes things are different.

In my prayer life I tend to address God first if its a spontaneous prayer, and then perhaps a saint or two if appropriate. If I'm approaching the tabernacle I tend to visit an icon of Maria first and pray to her (not to the icon its just there as an aid to prayer), about being ready to be before her Son's human presence and have only Him on my mind there. When there I spend the time quiet silent prayer to Christ for at least ten or twenty minutes.

If I'm praying the Rosary at the tabernacle with my friends, we tend to close it with calling upon the saints before the final prayer "Saint Joseph, pray for us; Saint Ansgar, pray for us; Saint Maximillian Kolbe, pray for us; Saint Agnes, pray for us; Saint Maria Goretti, pray for us..." Closing off with first a prayer to Mary (First Salve Regina, closed off with 'Pray for us Holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ') and then asking God that he would make us imitate what the Rosary is talking about and achieve its promises.

However the Rosary is a meditative prayer on the life of Christ's life, death and resurrection, there's ritual morning and evening prayers and those are addressed directly to God. Then there's the Divine Office which again is solely God, you pray/sing the Psalms from the bible along with various other prayers to God.

I haven't made a count, but I hope you can respect that its not clear cut. If you counted up the number of Hail Mary's it would dominate the list simple because of the Rosary. However that assumes that all prayers are equally important, and its the number of times said that marks it as important.

In the Rosary each Hail Mary is typically accompanied by a reflection on a gospel account, you can see an example of doing that here. However I would never do that with the Our Father, where each individual line of the prayer is its own mini-prayer. "Our Father who art in Heaven", you instantly think of God and His most supreme nature and the division of this world from that of His at the moment; "Hallowed be thy name", how do I make God's name holy or how can I fail to respect it? "Thy Kingdom Come", resurrection, judgement; "Thy Will be Done", Gethsemany, obedience, the supremacy of God... I would never want to recall on anything other than these things during the Our Father.

With the Hail Mary instead I can place myself standing with Mary (the first, most humble, most faithful, most Christ loving and most obedient Christian by our reckoning) considering these events of Christ's time on earth.

I know I pray a lot more than when I was a protestant, even if you took out all the prayers to the saints and just focused on prayers to God.

[RBerman]

For many reasons I ask saints to pray for me more often than with living people. If I'm reading you right the preference from your point of view is that we ask only other 'living saints', or mostly. Would you be okay with someone asking St Paul to pray for him?Whenever I'm in a prayer group, or I talk to devout friends, we reassure each other that we'll be praying and we tell about each others the intentions. So in that sense I'm not sure how much more frequently I can ask for prayer from other Christians, without making it an intrusive business. Prayers to the saints can happen anywhere and at any time, so for that reason alone I end up praying to them more often. And there's so many of them to address, and on earth there's only so many social engagements you get into. And I can reflect on their lives. Take Saint Maria Goretti who died a martyr-virgin, calling out to her attacker not to do it because it would be a sin against God and she didn't want him to go to Hell, she's often call to pray for the sake of chastity. However since one is not done to the exclusion of the other, I don't see what problem you could have even if 99% of my requests for prayer were to the saints.

You raise a fair point that the volume of prayers could factor into the percentages. If you're known as someone who is constantly opening up to his brothers and sisters in the church, requesting and offering prayer on every imaginable occasion when you're with them in person, you might still be a person who also constantly asks for prayer during the majority of the day when you're not in the company of your church. I think you had an editing error; I do not know what "we tell about each others the intentions" means. Hopefully it means that you are doing what I described: asking specific people for specific prayer for specific needs in your life.

In my prayer life I tend to address God first if its a spontaneous prayer, and then perhaps a saint or two if appropriate. If I'm approaching the tabernacle I tend to visit an icon of Maria first and pray to her (not to the icon its just there as an aid to prayer), about being ready to be before her Son's human presence and have only Him on my mind there. When there I spend the time quiet silent prayer to Christ for at least ten or twenty minutes. If I'm praying the Rosary at the tabernacle with my friends, we tend to close it with calling upon the saints before the final prayer "Saint Joseph, pray for us; Saint Ansgar, pray for us; Saint Maximillian Kolbe, pray for us; Saint Agnes, pray for us; Saint Maria Goretti, pray for us..." Closing off with first a prayer to Mary (First Salve Regina, closed off with 'Pray for us Holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ') and then asking God that he would make us imitate what the Rosary is talking about and achieve its promises. However the Rosary is a meditative prayer on the life of Christ's life, death and resurrection, there's ritual morning and evening prayers and those are addressed directly to God. Then there's the Divine Office which again is solely God, you pray/sing the Psalms from the bible along with various other prayers to God. I haven't made a count, but I hope you can respect that its not clear cut. If you counted up the number of Hail Mary's it would dominate the list simple because of the Rosary. However that assumes that all prayers are equally important, and its the number of times said that marks it as important. In the Rosary each Hail Mary is typically accompanied by a reflection on a gospel account, you can see an example of doing that here. However I would never do that with the Our Father, where each individual line of the prayer is its own mini-prayer. "Our Father who art in Heaven", you instantly think of God and His most supreme nature and the division of this world from that of His at the moment; "Hallowed be thy name", how do I make God's name holy or how can I fail to respect it? "Thy Kingdom Come", resurrection, judgement; "Thy Will be Done", Gethsemany, obedience, the supremacy of God... I would never want to recall on anything other than these things during the Our Father. With the Hail Mary instead I can place myself standing with Mary (the first, most humble, most faithful, most Christ loving and most obedient Christian by our reckoning) considering these events of Christ's time on earth. I know I pray a lot more than when I was a protestant, even if you took out all the prayers to the saints and just focused on prayers to God.

I think of each line in the paternoster as a separate petition, but all part of the same prayer, the "Lord's Prayer." But I can see how, when set beside something like, "Saint Joseph, pray for us; Saint Ansgar, pray for us; Saint Maximillian Kolbe, pray for us; Saint Agnes, pray for us; Saint Maria Goretti, pray for us...," which invokes several different saints in a brief and generic fashion (i.e. without asking them to pray for anything in particular; don't take "generic" as necessarily a criticism), the individual petitions in the Lord's Prayer might seem similar. To me, a separate prayer means a change of speaker or audience, not just a separate thought.

You can say better than I how much you are thinking about Christ while repeating a prayer to Mary. As for the number of times: the human brain works through repetition. The things that we spend time repeating are the things that shape us; that's how an athlete or musician increases in skill. So it would seem to me that the total volume and the total number of repeats are both highly relevant to shaping what we actually value, potentially in opposition to what we say we value.

[One Bad Pig]

It's fascinating to read about the supposed intercession by dead saints and the use of icons, and a standard liturgy. I'm personally curious about exploring the latter two for myself.

There's at least as much proof for the actual intercession by saints (whom we don't consider as dead - Matt. 22:32) as there is for healing at Pentecostal services.

Here is a short article on liturgy. In communist Russia, the government put severe restrictions on what the priest could say in a homily or teach. Since the theology of the church is present in the cycle of services, however, the church remained alive.

[Pentecost]

There's at least as much proof for the actual intercession by saints (whom we don't consider as dead - Matt. 22:32) as there is for healing at Pentecostal services.

I believe that God takes the prayers of His people seriously, even when they are misguided. I do not know if it is a mistake to pray to saints (who do not live on Earth?), my use of "supposed" was not meant to be derisive, but if it is a mistake I see no issue with God answering them anyways. I am not sure how one would refer to deceased saints in contrast to those saints who have not died the first physical death. EDIT: I found the answer on the website you linked to. I'm not certain it is entirely correct, but I think I see the point. It is something I will have to think and pray about.

Here is a short article on liturgy. In communist Russia, the government put severe restrictions on what the priest could say in a homily or teach. Since the theology of the church is present in the cycle of services, however, the church remained alive.

Thank you for the link, I will have to examine it later when I have more time. :)EDIT: So far I have been delighted with reading the link and what I've seen so far appeals to me greatly. A strict daily pattern is something that I think would help me personally (and I've heard many Pentecostal teachers advise congregations to use a devotational book which seems like a weaker form of liturgy). And additionally the idea of "experiencing" God is borrowed by Pentecostals from the Moravians by means of John Wesley, so again there is a parallel and I see a certain fullness in the use of sight and scent in addition to sound.

The form is different but I hope you are not offended if I say I perceive a sameness in purpose.

[robrecht]

I don't think it's blasphemy to ask other saints to pray for you. ...

Hi, again, RBerman. I am curious what you think of Clement of Alexandria's statement that One Bad Pig linked to:

"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]"

Miscellanies 7:12
Alexandria, AD 208

I think I've read somewhere that some believe that all the saints are now sleeping until the general resurrection. Do you believe what Clement of Alexandria said is true? According to some, he too is a saint now, so I am sure he will be interested in your evaluation of his statement. If not, I'll be sure to let him know anyway. ;)

[RBerman]

Hi, again, RBerman. I am curious what you think of Clement of Alexandria's statement that One Bad Pig linked to:

"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]"

Miscellanies 7:12
Alexandria, AD 208

I think I've read somewhere that some believe that all the saints are now sleeping until the general resurrection. Do you believe what Clement of Alexandria said is true? According to some, he too is a saint now, so I am sure he will be interested in your evaluation of his statement. If not, I'll be sure to let him know anyway. ;)

If Clement was ever one of God's saints while on earth, then he is one now too. I don't hold to the doctrine of soul-sleep. Clement appears to be speaking of the heavenly-mindedness of the "Gnostic," by which he means the thoughtful Christian. That phrase about the "choir of the saints" appears several times in that section of the Miscellanies:

[As part of the exposition of 1 Corinthians 6]"Wherefore," he says, "ye are justified in the name of the Lord." Ye are made, so to speak, by Him to be righteous as He is, and are blended as far as possible with the Holy Spirit. For "are not all things lawful to me? yet I will not be brought under the power of any," so as to do, or think, or speak aught contrary to the Gospel. "Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats, which God shall destroy," -- that is, such as think and live as if they were made for eating, and do not eat that they may live as a consequence, and apply to knowledge as the primary end. And does he not say that these are, as it were, the fleshy parts of the holy body? As a body, the Church of the Lord, the spiritual and holy choir, is symbolized. Whence those, who are merely called, but do not live in accordance with the word, are the fleshy parts. "Now" this spiritual "body," the holy Church, "is not for fornication." Nor are those things which belong to heathen life to be adopted by apostasy from the Gospel. For he who conducts himself heathenishly in the Church, whether in deed, or word, or even in thought, commits fornication with reference to the Church and his own body. He who in this way "is joined to the harlot," that is, to conduct contrary to the Covenant becomes another "body," not holy, "and one flesh," and has a heathenish life and another hope. "But he that is joined to the Lord in spirit" becomes a spiritual body by a different kind of conjunction...

Wherefore also he who holds converse with God must have his soul immaculate and stainlessly pure, it being essential to have made himself perfectly good. But also it becomes him to make all his prayers gently with the good. For it is a dangerous thing to take part in others' sins. Accordingly the Gnostic will pray along with those who have more recently believed, for those things in respect of which it is their duty to act together. And his whole life is a holy festival. His sacrifices are prayers, and praises, and readings in the Scriptures before meals, and psalms and hymns during meals and before bed, and prayers also again during night. By these he unites himself to the divine choir, from continual recollection, engaged in contemplation which has everlasting remembrance...

He having acquired the habit of doing good, exercises beneficence well, quicker than speaking; praying that he may get a share in the sins of his brethren, in order to confession and conversion on the part of his kindred; and eager to give a share to those dearest to him of his own good things. And so these are to him, friends. Promoting, then, the growth of the seeds deposited in him, according to the husbandry enjoined by the Lord, he continues free of sin, and becomes continent, and lives in spirit with those who are like him, among the choirs of the saints, though still detained on earth...

It seems to me that Clement is emphasizing the reality of the spiritual world, that we are "surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses," in the words of the Epistle to the Hebrews (12:1). Certainly they are spiritually with us when we pray. As to whether it's proper to speak of them as praying, I am aware of no Biblical warrant for such an idea. Probably some of the things we pray for, they would say, "Hoo boy, what a goof that one is!" Nor does Clement suggest that we should pray to them, but only in their company, as best I can tell.

[robrecht]

Thanks for quoting that, RBerman. Makes me feel like I'm back in the monastery during the Office of Readings.

[foudroyant]

Still waiting for a response from Post #122.

[One Bad Pig]

From the OP (#3):
The fact that there are passages in the Bible which demonstrate the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer/worship (which means He is omniscient) is powerful testimony that He is God. Many heretics deny His Deity so Roman Catholics and others who claim Mary can be prayed to (yes, that is worship) really discredit who the Lord Jesus is.
a. William Mounce: The fact that people pray to both God (Mt. 6:9) and Jesus (Acts 1:24) is part of the proof of Jesus' deity (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words, Pray, page 531).
b. A.H. Leitch: Christ possesses the attributes of God: omniscience (Acts 1:24) (2:94, deity of Christ, The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible).
c. EDNT: On the one hand God is "in heaven" (Matt 6:9f. par.; 7:11; 11:25) and strictly distinguishable from everything that is of this world. On the other hand, however, he is present (Matt 6:1-18; Rev 1:8) and omniscient (Matt 6:8, 32; Acts 1:24; 15:8) (2:141, theos, G. Schneider).


Just my personal interpretation?
No way.


Based on what Mounce wrote above for those who pray to Mary it teaches:
The fact that Roman Catholics and others pray to God (Mt. 6:9) and Mary is part of the proof that they believe Mary is omniscient (God).

Based on what Leitch (and Schneider) wrote above for those who pray to Mary it teaches:
Mary possesses the attributes of God: omniscience (kardiognwsta).

Here is quite sufficient proof to back up my assertion in post #122. You're merrily burning the strawman that we believe Mary is omniscient. In doing so, you're misusing Mounce, Leitch, and Schneider. Your assertions are so painfully bad that it's just not worth my time to refute them more than the first couple times they come up; I have better things to do with my time.

[foudroyant]

Citing Acts 1:24, Mounce teaches that part of the proof that Jesus is God is that He is prayed to.

How is that a misuse of Mounce?

[One Bad Pig]

Citing Acts 1:24, Mounce teaches that part of the proof that Jesus is God is that He is prayed to.

How is that a misuse of Mounce?

I don't know that that is, since I don't have the rest of what he wrote. However, your statement, "Based on what Mounce wrote above. . . " is most certainly a misuse of Mounce.

[foudroyant]

You don't know that it is a misuse of Mounce but then you add later that it is most certainly a misuse of Mounce.

Yeah that makes sense.

Go check out page 531 and whatever else you can find in what he wrote concerning "pray" in this section. It's there for anyone to see. Thing is you can't refute it so now you resort to playing this stupid game of denial.


NIDNTT: In prayer we are never to forget whom we are addressing: the living God, the almighty One with whom nothing is impossible, and from whom therefore all things may be expected (2:857, Prayer, H. Schonweiss).

Catholics and others of their ilk add Mary and countless other "saints" to the mix identifying them as "the living God" as well in that they are also prayed to.

Now two sources of pray/prayer are against the blasphemy of praying to anyone/anything else but God alone.

[Kristian Joensen]

If one knows the totality of all hearts of all people that is stating they are omniscient.

I know this posts of yours is old and you may not respond by this point, but I felt I had to address this.

Granting for the sake of argument that Mary would have to know "the totality of all hearts" in stead of being given part of that knowledge in a piecemeal fashion by God or angels(each angel only knowing one part of this), I would like to point out that you could know the totality of the hearths of all people:

1. Without knowing all the events of history.
2. Without knowing how to build a CPU.
3. Without knowing how to fly an aeroplane.
4. Without knowing what things are located at every coordinate point in the universe.

Etc

However omniscience requires that you know all of those things. So it is very much possible to know "the totality of all hearts of all people" without being omniscient. Now it could well be the case that such knowledge of hearts is limited to God and if you can show this by scripture and/or philosophy I will glady accept this. But a certain piece of knowledge being limited to God doesn't mean that possessing that piece of knowledge is the same thing as possessing omniscience. It would even be possible to know "the totality of all hearts of all people" without knowing ANYTHING ELSE! You wouldn't even need to know your own name.

[foudroyant]

Both 1 Kings 8:39 and 2 Chronicles 6:30 teach that God alone has this knowledge.

Furthermore, to know the totality of all the hearts of all people is the same thing as being omniscient.
See Part "B"
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ce%29%E2%80%8F

[Kristian Joensen]

Both 1 Kings 8:39 and 2 Chronicles 6:30 teach that God alone has this knowledge.

Furthermore, to know the totality of all the hearts of all people is the same thing as being omniscient.
See Part "B"
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ce%29%E2%80%8F

Omniscience implies knowing the heart of people but not vice versa. It is possible for you to be correct about only God knowing the heart of man as those verses seem to imply without you being correct that that implies omniscience. There may be knowledge that only God has without God needing his omniscience to have that knowledge.

This is a valid argument and sound argument:

1. If God is omniscient he knows the hearts of all people.
2. God is omniscient.
Conclusion: God knows the heart of all people.

This is NOT a valid argument:
1. If God is omniscient he knows the hearts of all people.
2. God knows the hearts of all people.
Conclusion: God is omniscient.

This does not follow logically. It is committing the fallacy of affirming the consequent.