Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

[tabibito]

Quite clearly, this Foudroyant person does not understand that simply declaring an argument false on the basis of a faulty premise is not a refutation.

[foudroyant]

Clearly Mr. Tab asserts something about what the RCC believes but then offers no proof for it.

Yeah now that's something to believe in!

[tabibito]

This Foudroyant person seems to think that declaring that the saints are not deities is insufficient to show that the saints are not being addressed in προσεθχομαι, despite the fact that (even by his own admission) only a deity can be addressed by προσευχομαι.
Thus, I conclude that he is making confident assertions about things he does not understand.

[TimelessTheist]

Nope. It doesn't teach the saints are being prayed "to".

I know you hope that it would but a false hope is not a hope one should cling to - especially as bad as this one.

Then tell me, how exactly would the Saint have access to these prayers if they were not being prayed 'to' intercede on the human's behalf. Furthermore, if these prayers are not addressed to the saints with the intention of intercession, why are they handing them to God? If that were the case, wouldn't the prayers just go directly 'to' God himself? Your move, foudy.

[tabibito]

Then tell me, how exactly would the Saint have access to these prayers if they were not being prayed 'to' intercede on the human's behalf. Furthermore, if these prayers are not addressed to the saints with the intention of intercession, why are they handing them to God? If that were the case, wouldn't the prayers just go directly 'to' God himself? Your move, foudy.

Not exactly a compelling argument, Timeless Theist. I do believe that Spartacus may have offered something more solid though.

[tabibito]

I have Luke 4:8 to do so. Prayer is due unto God ONLY - it doesn't have to list every created being or created thing in the universe. God alone - all else is a no no.
There is BIBLICAL proof for the Trinity. Zero biblical proof for dulia.

That's a first: never seen προσκυνεω translated as prayer before.

[foudroyant]

That's a first: never seen προσκυνεω translated as prayer before.

Me too.
This is why I am not talking about proskynew but latreuo.


From the OP:
c. Luke 2:37 - And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. (KJV)
One of the ways Anna offered worship (the Greek word here is latreuo) to God is by praying to Him.
1.TDNT: The Ministry of Prayer: Elsewhere the references of latreuein is to the general ministry of prayer and praise, e.g., adoration in Mt. 4:10; Rev. 7:15; 22:3, prayer and supplication in Lk. 2:37; Acts 26:7. (TDNT 4:62, latreuo, Strathmann).

[foudroyant]

This Foudroyant person seems to think that declaring that the saints are not deities is insufficient to show that the saints are not being addressed in προσεθχομαι, despite the fact that (even by his own admission) only a deity can be addressed by προσευχομαι.
Thus, I conclude that he is making confident assertions about things he does not understand.

huh?

[TimelessTheist]

Not exactly a compelling argument, Timeless Theist. I do believe that Spartacus may have offered something more solid though.

I think it is. If the prayers were all addressed to God directly, the Saints would neither have access to them, nor would they have to give them to God.

[foudroyant]

http://carm.org/praying-saints-biblical

[foudroyant]

Luke 2:37 - And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. (KJV)
1.TDNT: The Ministry of Prayer: Elsewhere the references of latreuein is to the general ministry of prayer and praise, e.g., adoration in Mt. 4:10; Rev. 7:15; 22:3, prayer and supplication in Lk. 2:37; Acts 26:7. (TDNT 4:62, latreuo, Strathmann).

Prayer can not be divorced from latreuo.
Luke 4:8 teaches that only God is to be served.
Luke 2:37 teaches that one of the ways Anna offered worship (λατρεύουσα) to God is by praying to Him.
Not only does this apply to the two passages above but every other time Luke uses latreuo prayer can not be separated from it (Luke 1:74; Acts 7:7; 7:42; 24:14; 26:7; 27:23).

Is there a passage in Luke's writings where latreuo is used that prayer is not associated with it?

[tabibito]

Verse 8 says speaks of the "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Verses 9-10 speak of a new song sung in heaven. We have no problem with those in heaven hearing what is said on earth. Many Christians deny that this is possible, but it seems to be clearly taught here.

Good - we have an admission that it "seems". Nothing shows that those saints are direct recipients of the prayers.

Second, just because those in heaven can hear the prayers of those on Earth does not mean that is okay to pray to saints.

a moment ago it was "seems".

If they can hear the prayers of people, it is because God grants that to them. Think about it. Can those in heaven hear the prayers uttered without speech? Can they read minds? It is only God who knows all things, and only God can grant anyone to hear or know what the prayers are of those who pray in silence. Let's not give the saints superhuman powers similar to omniscience.

Well now - I'm glad someone knows what authorities and powers are available to the resurrected saints and granted them by God. This information seemingly arises from prophecy, because it isn't available from reading the Bible. ...... Ahhh ... Sola Scriptura IS what he preaches, isn't it? Or did I get that wrong?

The Roman Catholic Church must infer this from scripture and read it into the text in order to support its error.

Rome does not claim Sola Scriptura, so "reading things into the text" isn't an issue. It may have, according to Rome's teaching, arisen through separate revelation. If Sola Scriptura is a false doctrine, this is not a viable argument.

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev. 19:10).

John wants to bow the knee and worship the angel. But the angel tells him not to do that because he is a fellow creature. If the angel says that he is a fellow creature like John and that John is not to bow to him, then neither should anyone else bow to an angel or any creature so as to offer worship.

Strawman - John specifically states that he intended to worship προσκυνεω the angel. With the possible exception of προσευχομαι, prayer is not inherently an act of worship. Conflating prayer with worship certainly doesn't make an argument. And in my opinion, making an artificial distinction between veneration and worship is probably no better.

[TimelessTheist]

http://carm.org/praying-saints-biblical

Matt Slick makes the exact same stupid arguments that you do. Although, you have to love this part of the article:

The Roman Catholic Church replies that we do not know what the state is of those in heaven, and that we should not therefore conclude that they cannot hear all of our prayers. But this is an argument from silence. In other words, we don't know what it is like, so we conclude it's possible. It is an argument based on what we do not know--not what we do know. This is a very, very weak way of trying to present a position.

Because, I could have sworn, at the beginning of the article, he said something that completely contradicted this.

can the prayers be authored by those who are already in heaven? It doesn't say. There are different interpretations on exactly who the saints are because their identity can't be precisely demonstrated; after all, Revelation is a highly symbolic book. Therefore, if it cannot be demonstrated conclusively who they are, then it cannot be demonstrated conclusively whose prayers they are either.

I knew Matt Slick was inconsistent, but he can at least try to keep himself consistent within the same article.

Nonetheless, Matt Slick doesn't actually know what an argument from silence is. An argument from silence is as follows:

the absence of a reference to an event or a document is used to cast doubt on the event not mentioned

That's not what's happening here.

Furthermore, Matt Slick is wrong about the verse not proving intercession with prayers, as the 'elders and creatures' are clearly not the Saints, as the verse makes a distinction with the "Prayers of the Saints", instead of just saying "their prayers" or something along those lines, which means that the elders and creatures handing God the prayers, are not, themselves, the Saints, as they are not addressed as such, even though the prayers are addressed as "prayers of the Saints", which also means that they are interceding on behalf of the Saints, thus proving intercession with prayer. So, there you go, buddy.

[foudroyant]

Mr. Tab,

Saints don't
know the heats of people the way God does.

[foudroyant]

Matt Slick makes the exact same stupid arguments that you do. Although, you have to love this part of the article:



Because, I could have sworn, at the beginning of the article, he said something that completely contradicted this.



I knew Matt Slick was inconsistent, but he can at least try to keep himself consistent within the same article.

Nonetheless, Matt Slick doesn't actually know what an argument from silence is. An argument from silence is as follows:



That's not what's happening here.

Furthermore, Matt Slick is wrong about the verse not proving intercession with prayers, as the 'elders and creatures' are clearly not the Saints, as the verse makes a distinction with the "Prayers of the Saints", instead of just saying "their prayers" or something along those lines, which means that the elders and creatures handing God the prayers, are not, themselves, the Saints, as they are not addressed as such, even though the prayers are addressed as "prayers of the Saints", which also means that they are interceding on behalf of the Saints, thus proving intercession with prayer. So, there you go, buddy.

Focus on the minors and notr the majors again.

Nothing says the prayers are directed "to" the saints.